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Author Topic:   Oh my God, I'm an Atheist !!
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 61 of 183 (410118)
07-13-2007 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by PaulK
07-11-2007 6:33 PM


After reading what Percy wrote, and thinking about how you quoted me, it is unfair to cut and paste only part of the premise.
I clearly indicated that it is possible for people to not know God in their hearts, because the world doesn't let them.
ABE, I also indicated, that it is just a belief.
Edited by riVeRraT, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by PaulK, posted 07-11-2007 6:33 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by PaulK, posted 07-13-2007 10:20 AM riVeRraT has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 62 of 183 (410120)
07-13-2007 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by anastasia
07-12-2007 5:39 PM


Re: Created to Worship
2 for 2.
Well put again.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by anastasia, posted 07-12-2007 5:39 PM anastasia has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 63 of 183 (410121)
07-13-2007 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by riVeRraT
07-13-2007 9:59 AM


To be fair here's the whole paragraph:
quote:
What spawns it, is based on my belief that we were all created to worship God, and that given Jesus's death and the deposit of the Holy Spirit, we all know God, regardless of our religion. So we all know God in our hearts/spirits, it is the world, and religion that taints us.
It quite clearly says "all", and there's nothing to indicate any exception. Your "clear indication" is clearly not there. All there is, is a vague reference to "taint" which appears to be a reference to your idea of "oppression".
Also the fact that it is "just a belief" isn't relevant since it is a premise of your argument. Pointing out that it is untrue is definitely relevant and therefore legitimate comment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by riVeRraT, posted 07-13-2007 9:59 AM riVeRraT has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 64 of 183 (410123)
07-13-2007 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by iceage
07-12-2007 7:28 PM


Re: Created to Worship
Let's let RiverRat or others respond to that.
The bible clearly and unequivocally states that salvation is only through Jesus and only by being born again. If a good Muslim dies without accepting Jesus then they are hell bound per scripture. Hey what is that I just heard... oh ya a chorus's of Amens!
Anastasia put it well.
Having the Holy Spirit in us, means that we do know right from wrong. The temple is us, and we do not need to go to a temple to experience God.
I don't think it matters how you interpret it. I have met many atheist, and Muslims, who are more "Christian" than "christians."
Look at jar's definition of believing in Jesus, and you can start to see what I am talking about.
I don't think it is so black and white that we can even argue about it. Believing in God, and doing what is right is a relative thing, and subjective to each individual and where they are at in life.
What right to I or any other person on earth to say that anyone is going to hell? Why because the bible says so?
The bible says Jesus came to save, not to judge, and we are to be like Him. So if people think that anything is a sin, they should only be worried about themselves, and whether they should be sinning or not. Not a single one of us can ever be like Jesus, and if Jesus didn't condemn people, then why should we?
Before pointing out the speck in your brothers eye, remove the plank from yours,
he who is without sin, throw the first stone.
Why don't people get this stuff, it's so simple.
I fully understand why Jesus said, when you know the truth, the truth will set you free.
I don't want to judge you or taz, but it seems to me, like the truth is hidden from you sight.
Don't take that wrong, because I know the more of the truth is hidden from my own sight as well.
If we are created to worship God (as Riverrat believes), and the God described in the Bible is the one true vision of God, then there would be a detectable tendency for people when approaching God to align their worshiping impulses towards the core beliefs described in the Bible such as a triune Godhead, the necessity for water baptism, the nature of the Holy Spirit, or second coming. There would also be a steady defection from counterfeit religions. There would be a detectable core agreement on a set of Godly principles.
That's just not so.
Jesus said the children will go to heaven, and they haven't a clue of any of that stuff.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by iceage, posted 07-12-2007 7:28 PM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by jar, posted 07-13-2007 11:12 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 76 by iceage, posted 07-13-2007 12:35 PM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 65 of 183 (410125)
07-13-2007 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by PaulK
07-13-2007 2:13 AM


Well I certainly wasn't "oppressed" or "brainwashed" into atheism. I was raised in a Christian family, my father is a lay preacher (and still taking services even though he's nearly 80). His father was a minister. You can' blame college either since I left the church before going there, when I was facing the prospect of Confirmation. So no, if there was any social pressure on me it was in the other direction.
Is this supposed to mean that your family or church taught you correctly? That they even get it? (not trying to put your family down)
Or does it mean, you were smart enough, and innocent enough at the time (and probably closer to God than all of them) to realize, that it wasn't God that rules those peoples lives?
It's not about social pressure, it is about the truth, and what we must go through to realize it.
I realized myself at a very young age (8) the church was BS. I was agnostic for the next 30 years.
I can clearly see now why God created evil, without it, it seems we could never really know good.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by PaulK, posted 07-13-2007 2:13 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by PaulK, posted 07-13-2007 10:46 AM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 66 of 183 (410126)
07-13-2007 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Percy
07-13-2007 7:07 AM


Re: Not at all sure of any reasoning here.
In other words, Taz looks at Christians like yourself and sees the hatred (e.g., toward gays) and intolerance (e.g., only born-again Christians go to heaven) and ignorance (e.g., Genesis should be taught instead of evolution), and he concludes that if that is what evangelical Christianity does to people, he wants no part of it.
The fact the taz thinks that about me, just shows how little he has actually read my posts. It only shows his (probably righteous) anger towards other christians, and not myself.
It shows him to be prejudice, and the person who nominated him as well.
You might as well throw both into the category of haters, and bigots.
Seems like the bible is correct when it says, remove the plank out of your own eye before pointing out the speck in your brothers eye.
That post, is probably one of the worst posts (top 50) I have ever read in this forum, it confuses me (not really) how it could have ever been nominated.
If evangelical Christianity were actually a religion of love and tolerance and openness,
It is not, but Jesus's way is.
That you apparently believe this says much about you, and confirms what Taz has said.
You have no right to say that. I am not going to go into my personal life on this one, because I know for a fact that it will go no where.
Instead you should be embracing the fact that I said I forgave them.
shame on you.
Let me rephrase this for you so that you understand what people actually hear when you say things like this: "God has met me where I am at, so I am at peace with myself when I vote for people who favor anti-gay legislation. I feel God's love when I tell people they won't go to heaven unless they accept my God. I'm doing the Lord's work when I vote for school board members who will substitute my religious beliefs for science in public schools. God finds his pleasure in me, and so if you are filled with anger at my actions then that is a flaw within yourself, God loves me, and you who are alienated from God's love because you have cut yourself off from him will suffer the consequences of your evil decision."
You are just as bad as taz.
You know nothing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Percy, posted 07-13-2007 7:07 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Percy, posted 07-13-2007 11:21 AM riVeRraT has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 67 of 183 (410129)
07-13-2007 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by riVeRraT
07-13-2007 10:33 AM


quote:
Is this supposed to mean that your family or church taught you correctly? That they even get it? (not trying to put your family down)
What does "correctly" mean in this context ? What are you asking for ? They certainly didn't pressure me into thinking that God didn't exist. Nor did Sunday school. Nor the after-church youth group meetings.
quote:
Or does it mean, you were smart enough, and innocent enough at the time (and probably closer to God than all of them) to realize, that it wasn't God that rules those peoples lives?
Actually I read the Bible and I was smart enough to see that it was pretty seriously inconsistent on the idea of God. I could see that people were people and the church people were just ordinary good people - yes they didn't seem to especially follow some of Jesus teachings but damn few people do - and I'd be surprised if you were one. And then I learned about other religions and they didn't seem to have any worse basis for belief. So I found out it was all built on sand. Just beliefs taken for granted. And if you were right that is exactly what wouldn't happen. It happened because I NEVER had this inner knowledge of God you refer to.
quote:
I can clearly see now why God created evil, without it, it seems we could never really know good.
What's so important about "knowing good" in that sense ? And how much evil is needed for that ? Can you really argue that every bit of evil in the world is necessary just for "knowing good" ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by riVeRraT, posted 07-13-2007 10:33 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by riVeRraT, posted 07-13-2007 10:52 AM PaulK has replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 68 of 183 (410131)
07-13-2007 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Percy
07-11-2007 11:20 AM


I do not doubt that one day I will die. When that day finally comes, since I had no doubt it would one day come, its actual arrival provides me no more evidence for the existence of God than I had before.
I thought you were a theist, albeit, a deist. How exactly have you come to your conclusions to begin with?
Another possibility is that you think atheists deep inside understand there really is a God, but they deny God because they want an excuse to free themselves from moral behavior. On their deathbed they'll realize their error and beg forgiveness.
The prospect of imminent death has been known to change one's whole perspective on life. Looking back in hindsight it tends to become clear that a life was either wasted in reckless self-indulgence, or it was used to produce a lot of fruit. (That extends to every one)
I share some of the sentiments you have for Riverrat concerning this. And this why: It seems to be perpetually on their mind... So much so that they would be willing to invest so much time to that which doesn't even exist.
Atheism is the only negative position used in a proactive way. That's very telling to me.
I consider all these possibilities unlikely. Death is not something atheists don't think about until it actually happens, atheists are not immoral, and the record of atheist deathbed conversions is very poor.
I think he is asking every one on a personal level; not a generalization.

"The problem of Christianity is not that it has been tried and found wanting, but that it is difficult and left untried" -G.K. Chesterton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Percy, posted 07-11-2007 11:20 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Percy, posted 07-13-2007 11:43 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 69 of 183 (410132)
07-13-2007 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by PaulK
07-13-2007 10:46 AM


What does "correctly" mean in this context ? What are you asking for ? They certainly didn't pressure me into thinking that God didn't exist. Nor did Sunday school. Nor the after-church youth group meetings.
I am sorry, I should have asked you why you choose not to believe.
It happened because I NEVER had this inner knowledge of God you refer to.
Hopefully it will be revealed to you one day. I know you don't want to hear that, but I say it humbly. I think it is being revealed to you as we speak.
What's so important about "knowing good" in that sense ? And how much evil is needed for that ? Can you really argue that every bit of evil in the world is necessary just for "knowing good" ?
How can one appreciate the light, until they have experienced the dark?
Surely the longer you stay in the dark, the more you appreciate the light.
Some of us need to stay in the dark longer than others. For me it is a long time, and continues to this day.
Sorry, this is the best way I know how to explain it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by PaulK, posted 07-13-2007 10:46 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by PaulK, posted 07-13-2007 10:59 AM riVeRraT has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 70 of 183 (410133)
07-13-2007 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by riVeRraT
07-13-2007 10:52 AM


OK, I didn't choose not to believe. As I said I came to the realsiation that there was nothing there. No basis for beleif. I came to realise that I'd just taken it for granted and when I knew that I knew that I didn't believe any longer.
And you haven't explained to me how this supposed "deposit of the Holy Spirit" or Jesus' death are suppsoed to give me this suppsoed knowledge.
Nor do you really offer an explanation of evil. You don't say why this "appreciation" is worth any evil, let alone the amount that actually exists and has existed in this world. Nor do you offer any quantification even though it is certain that some people suffer much worse than others (I've been fortunate, I know, and only suffered in ways I consider trivial).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by riVeRraT, posted 07-13-2007 10:52 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by riVeRraT, posted 07-14-2007 10:48 AM PaulK has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 71 of 183 (410135)
07-13-2007 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by riVeRraT
07-13-2007 10:25 AM


Re: Created to Worship
The bible says Jesus came to save, not to judge, and we are to be like Him. So if people think that anything is a sin, they should only be worried about themselves, and whether they should be sinning or not. Not a single one of us can ever be like Jesus, and if Jesus didn't condemn people, then why should we?
Huh?
Why can't people be like Jesus?
The whole message of Jesus is to show what plain old humans can do.
If that is not the case, then all of Christianity is but a farce.
Having the Holy Spirit in us, means that we do know right from wrong. The temple is us, and we do not need to go to a temple to experience God.
I'm sorry, but just what is that based on? The Knowledge of Right and Wrong is the gift from the Garden of Eden, it has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit.
And what does any of that have to do with the question in the OP?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by riVeRraT, posted 07-13-2007 10:25 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by riVeRraT, posted 07-14-2007 10:52 AM jar has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22393
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 72 of 183 (410138)
07-13-2007 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by riVeRraT
07-13-2007 10:39 AM


Re: Not at all sure of any reasoning here.
riVeRraT writes:
If evangelical Christianity were actually a religion of love and tolerance and openness,
It is not, but Jesus's way is.
You're saying that evangelical Christianity is not a religion of love and tolerance? You're saying that it doesn't follow Jesus?
Any evangelical Christians reading this out there?
That you apparently believe this [gays have wronged you] says much about you, and confirms what Taz has said.
You have no right to say that. I am not going to go into my personal life on this one, because I know for a fact that it will go no where.
Yours is an inherently bigoted attitude. You're wronged by a gay, you therefore conclude all gays are bad. This type of thinking is the cause of discrimination and racism.
Instead you should be embracing the fact that I said I forgave them.
Why, how Christian of you and your holier-than-thou attitude!
shame on you.
...
You are just as bad as taz.
You know nothing.
Thank you for judging! Please judge again soon!
Sorry to be so hard on you, Riv, but you seriously need to take a step back and examine your attitudes. For example, this forgiveness thing might feel like generosity to you, but it comes across as haughty smugness and conceit to others. I sure don't feel the love of the Holy Spirit in anything you say. This was Taz's point, that if this is what being filled with the Holy Spirit does to people, he wants no part of it.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by riVeRraT, posted 07-13-2007 10:39 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by riVeRraT, posted 07-14-2007 11:02 AM Percy has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22393
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 73 of 183 (410140)
07-13-2007 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Hyroglyphx
07-13-2007 10:50 AM


nemesis_juggernaut writes:
I thought you were a theist, albeit, a deist. How exactly have you come to your conclusions to begin with?
True spiritual beliefs are not something you conclude after a period of deep rational thought. They aren't something you find by visiting enough churches or talking to enough people or reading enough books. True spiritual beliefs are borne within. Or at least so it is with me.
The prospect of imminent death has been known to change one's whole perspective on life. Looking back in hindsight it tends to become clear that a life was either wasted in reckless self-indulgence, or it was used to produce a lot of fruit. (That extends to every one)
Why is it that Christians think everyone else is as obsessed with God as they are? Trust me on this, when I am taking my dying breath, it would be incredibly out of character if any of my thoughts had anything even remotely to do with God. Knowing me, I'd be wondering if I'd remembered to pay the electric bill.
Atheism is the only negative position used in a proactive way. That's very telling to me.
Really? The only negative position? Abortion rights groups that don't believe a fetus is a human being don't use their negative position in a proactive way? Hopefully just one example is sufficient for you to see that what you said doesn't make any sense. So what is it you're really trying to say?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-13-2007 10:50 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-13-2007 12:14 PM Percy has replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 74 of 183 (410143)
07-13-2007 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Percy
07-13-2007 11:43 AM


True spiritual beliefs are not something you conclude after a period of deep rational thought. They aren't something you find by visiting enough churches or talking to enough people or reading enough books. True spiritual beliefs are borne within. Or at least so it is with me.
Borne within? I'm afraid that is much to ambiguous for me. Can you explain it a bit more?
Why is it that Christians think everyone else is as obsessed with God as they are?
Because they talk it about it constantly! Your question strikes me as you being either comical, dishonest, or obtuse.
Look at who opens which threads concerning theological discussion. Look who responds to most threads on theological discussion. When you see a Christian making a thread or even a passing comment, immediately he or she is responded to with the pile-on technique.
So what is it you're really trying to say?
I'm saying that you are painting a picture where atheists in general are sort of aloof and fleeting when it comes to theological discussion. That may be the case for the lazy atheist, but here at EvC, we have atheists who seek after a controversy.
You are painting a picture where atheists have the title of tolerance, all the while being intolerant.

"The problem of Christianity is not that it has been tried and found wanting, but that it is difficult and left untried" -G.K. Chesterton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Percy, posted 07-13-2007 11:43 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Percy, posted 07-13-2007 12:31 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 77 by crashfrog, posted 07-13-2007 12:53 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 87 by kuresu, posted 07-14-2007 12:22 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22393
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 75 of 183 (410145)
07-13-2007 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Hyroglyphx
07-13-2007 12:14 PM


nemesis_juggernaut writes:
Borne within? I'm afraid that is much to ambiguous for me. Can you explain it a bit more?
There's nothing to explain. I don't know where my spiritual beliefs came from. They've always been a part of me. There was no seeking or soul searching.
I'm saying that you are painting a picture where atheists in general are sort of aloof and fleeting when it comes to theological discussion.
I don't recall saying anything about atheists in theological discussions. I hope I said something along the lines of them not giving God much thought. That doesn't mean they don't find believers to be fascinating and perplexing conundrums of illogic who, as a source of much controversy (e.g., religious interference in public education, in politics, and in the health issues of people they don't even know), they find very interesting to debate.
You are painting a picture where atheists have the title of tolerance, all the while being intolerant.
Intolerant I may be, but at least I don't call it God's way. I don't call upon a higher power to excuse my behavior. The way I see it, first Christians intrude their religious beliefs into secular matters, then when others object, they call them intolerant. Typical Christian behavior.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Minor change.
Edited by Percy, : Add to last paragraph.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-13-2007 12:14 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-13-2007 1:38 PM Percy has replied

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