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Author Topic:   Trilobites, Mountains and Marine Deposits - Evidence of a flood?
Minnemooseus
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Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


(2)
Message 331 of 519 (811620)
06-09-2017 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by Faith
05-30-2017 4:49 PM


Mainstream geologic theory put into hyperdrive
...but the idea is that the Flood deposited all the sedimentary layers that contain fossils, and in the case of mountains this would have happened before the mountains had been raised. After the Flood, the fossil-containing strata were pushed up to become mountains, which is why the fossils are IN the mountain and not just on it.
Essentially, you are stating the mainstream geologic theory of the sediment/rock origins and the mountain building. EXCEPT you want to compress it into a young Earth time frame.
The above quoted does not even require any sort of special flood - It works just fine with conventional sea levels.
Most limestones are the products of the accumulation of biological detritus. While it is conceivable that some of the detritus might have been "washed in" from elsewhere, there is much evidence that lifeforms were actually living and dying in the positions they are found as fossils. Years of living and dying on one horizon, followed by years of living and dying at another horizon above, followed by years of living and dying at another horizon above, etc. etc. etc. The limestone formation process does not fit into young-Earthism.
Nor does a mountain building event fit into young-Earthism.
In order to fit such into young-Earthism, you must invoke magic, because is does not work as any variety of natural process. You are saying God created with false evidence of old age.
Moose
Edited by Minnemooseus, : Call it a typo fix ("There" into "The")

Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Faith, posted 05-30-2017 4:49 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 332 of 519 (811624)
06-09-2017 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 331 by Minnemooseus
06-09-2017 7:34 PM


Re: Mainstream geologic theory put into hyperdrive
The above quoted does not even require any sort of special flood - It works just fine with conventional sea levels.
Most limestones are the products of the accumulation of biological detritus. While it is conceivable that some of the detritus might have been "washed in" from elsewhere, there is much evidence that lifeforms were actually living and dying in the positions they are found as fossils. Years of living and dying on one horizon, followed by years of living and dying at another horizon above, followed by years of living and dying at another horizon above, etc. etc. etc. There limestone formation process does not fit into young-Earthism.
Nor does a mountain building event fit into young-Earthism.
In order to fit such into young-Earthism, you must invoke magic, because is does not work as any variety of natural process. You are saying God created with false evidence of old age.
That's why it is the Fantastic Flying Flood Fantasy.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
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This message is a reply to:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 333 of 519 (811629)
06-09-2017 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 331 by Minnemooseus
06-09-2017 7:34 PM


Re: Mainstream geologic theory put into hyperdrive
Nor does a mountain building event fit into young-Earthism.
In order to fit such into young-Earthism, you must invoke magic, because is does not work as any variety of natural process. You are saying God created with false evidence of old age.
The same is true of archaeology and paleontology and related sciences.
In order to support the young earth belief, one has to deny, obfuscate, ignore, misrepresent, or otherwise hand-wave away the dating evidence. If one can't do that, the dating evidence by itself disproves both the young earth belief and the "exact" date posited for the global flood.
There is overwhelming archaeological evidence that there was no global flood during historic times, so there goes the "exact" date of 4348 years ago.
That is why we see the global flood not being placed at the "exact" date of 4348 years ago, but at the KT or even the PT boundary or even older, sometimes being said to have deposited the lowest layers of the Grand Canyon some 1.8 billion years ago!
What we are seeing is not science but anti-science, in other words, religious apologetics.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 334 of 519 (811634)
06-10-2017 2:44 AM


It's worth pointing out that the YEC timescale is less than half they claim they have. If mountains were still forming, continents shifting and animals changing and migrating at startling rates at the times that we have written historical records from - at least 485 BC for people like Herodotus, the 'father of history' - someone would have written about it.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 335 of 519 (811636)
06-10-2017 2:59 AM
Reply to: Message 334 by Tangle
06-10-2017 2:44 AM


I worked it all out a few years ago. The tectonic movement would have been imperceptible to normal observation after a few hundred years. During the first weeks you could have stood on the western edge of Europe and watched the Americas sail away a few feet per day, but there was nobody there at the time to see it. Probably too much volcanism there at the time anyway.
And animals didn't change at any unusual rate at all, same as today. But they did spread out far and wide, and within a few hundred years of the Ark's landing would have reached the ends of the earth.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 336 of 519 (811637)
06-10-2017 3:02 AM
Reply to: Message 331 by Minnemooseus
06-09-2017 7:34 PM


Re: Mainstream geologic theory put into hyperdrive
I think it quite possible without magic, but since you don't I'll just go back to the main evidence for the Flood and against the Time Scale which is the rapidly deposited strata with their abundance of fossils.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 337 of 519 (811638)
06-10-2017 3:08 AM
Reply to: Message 335 by Faith
06-10-2017 2:59 AM


Ah ok, so long as you've worked it out.....

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 335 by Faith, posted 06-10-2017 2:59 AM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 338 of 519 (811639)
06-10-2017 3:20 AM
Reply to: Message 335 by Faith
06-10-2017 2:59 AM


Faith writes:
During the first weeks you could have stood on the western edge of Europe and watched the Americas sail away a few feet per day, but there was nobody there at the time to see it. Probably too much volcanism there at the time anyway.
I don't see any of this global terraforming in the Noah bible story - am I reading a different book?
I think it's been pointed out that continents moving and mountains forming at those kind of rates would have created enough heat to boil the oceans dry and burn everything on land to a cinder on it. But I expect you've found a way around that too.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
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PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 339 of 519 (811640)
06-10-2017 3:31 AM
Reply to: Message 336 by Faith
06-10-2017 3:02 AM


Re: Mainstream geologic theory put into hyperdrive
quote:
I think it quite possible without magic, but since you don't I'll just go back to the main evidence for the Flood and against the Time Scale which is the rapidly deposited strata with their abundance of fossils
The existence of some rapidly deposited strata is hardly evidence against the scientific view. The existence of strata that were NOT rapidly deposited is far better evidence against Flood Geology. The abundance of fossils is also evidence against Flood geology - there are too many, as has been discussed previously in this forum.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 340 of 519 (811641)
06-10-2017 5:37 AM
Reply to: Message 339 by PaulK
06-10-2017 3:31 AM


Re: Mainstream geologic theory put into hyperdrive
... The abundance of fossils is also evidence against Flood geology - there are too many, as has been discussed previously in this forum.
And that is what this topic is about -- the marine shells in their totality disprove rather than prove a flood event.
(Faith): ... I think it quite possible without magic, but since you don't I'll just go back to the main evidence for the Flood and against the Time Scale which is the rapidly deposited strata with their abundance of fossils
Says the person who can't get past the tree rings in the Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1 thread, that by themselves destroy the YEC delusional "timescale" ...
When you're living in fantasy land you can make up anything -- scouring flood waters in one place, magic carpet flood waters in another, that lift up and transport whole marine ecosystems so gently they don't break fan corals or the stems of brachiopods. Whatever you "need" explained, can be fantasized to fit in the genie bottle.
But hey, you weren't there so you can't say it didn't happen ... (riiiiiiiiiiiight)
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : .

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 341 of 519 (811642)
06-10-2017 6:27 AM
Reply to: Message 340 by RAZD
06-10-2017 5:37 AM


Re: Mainstream geologic theory put into hyperdrive
RAZD writes:
magic carpet flood waters in another, that lift up and transport whole marine ecosystems so gently they don't break fan corals or the stems of brachiopods
Whilst simultaneously moving entire continents thousands of miles in a couple of hundred years, raising mountains and creating global volcanic disturbances but somehow keeping every 'kind' alive, thriving, travelling, breeding and evolving and - in a so far unimagined way - reseeding the world
Truly miraculous. Praise be!

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by RAZD, posted 06-10-2017 5:37 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 342 of 519 (811643)
06-10-2017 6:43 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by Faith
05-31-2017 6:30 PM


Remember this Faith?
This is the song and dance, complete with hand-waving and wails of denial. Because it is always the details that flummox creationist facile "explanations" based on ignorance of the total evidence.
Faith Message 192:
The marine fossils in rock layers at the tops of mountains suggest deposition by the Flood before those mountains existed. Then tectonic pressure pushed them up all over the earth so that all those fossils are embedded there in the rocks at the tops of the mountains.
RAZD Message 203:
The marine fossils in rock layers at the tops of mountains suggest deposition by the Flood in a marine environment - for decades and decades - before those mountains existed. Then tectonic pressure pushed them up all over the earth so that all those fossils are embedded there in the rocks at the tops of the mountains.
There fixed it for you.
Where are you getting this "decades" stuff? This is just the usual situation of the deposition of limestone layers containing dead marine creatures one after another in the Flood.
Note the length of time needed for each layer to be a mature ecosystem -- some brachiopods were 30 years old when they died and were gradually buried by silt as new brachiopods grew around and on top of them ... brachiopods have growth lines, like tree rings. Even one layer means marine growth lasting longer than the reported time for the purported magic flying flood. Tens of layers means centuries of growth, hundreds of layers means millennia.
Faith Message 205:
Nothing would have grown in the Flood. All the Flood did was carry things around. Your "mature marine growth" had to have been there
Why do you insist they had to grow in the Flood rather than already have grown in a marine environment before the Flood simply picked them up and buried them in what became a sedimentary rock?
RAZD Message 207:
You just exchanged one problem for another -- the length of time needed to grow those layers over layers over layers exceeds the time you pretend lapsed between your purported creation date and your purported flood date.
Faith Message 208:
The layers did not grow over layers over layers, the layers were made by the Flood, depositing one dead-creature-laden sediment onto another.
RAZD Message 209:
And now you have created another problem: where is all the real estate that those layers came from? The whole world is covered in multiple layers. Everywhere you look it is layers on top of layers.
Faith:
crickets: chirp ... chirp ... chirp ...
When you have to keep making up more and more fantastical "explanations" to maintain your original fantasy you end up with more and more ridiculous "explanations" ... it's like lying, except that the only one that believes you appears to be you.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Faith, posted 05-31-2017 6:30 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 343 of 519 (811657)
06-10-2017 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 342 by RAZD
06-10-2017 6:43 AM


Re: Remember this Faith?
You want to know where the sediments came from? They were washed off the land and churned up from the ocean, haven't I said that often enough?:
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 344 of 519 (811669)
06-10-2017 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 343 by Faith
06-10-2017 9:11 AM


Re: Remember this Faith?
Faith writes:
You want to know where the sediments came from? They were washed off the land and churned up from the ocean, haven't I said that often enough?:
And once again you provide evidence that Young Earth is simply as silly as the Biblical flood nonsense.
To wash sediments off the land and churn up sediments from the ocean you first must make sediments. And we know how long it takes to make sediments so we can also know how long it had to take to make the sediments you claim your imaginary flood washed off the land and churned up from the ocean.
And that comes to billions of years Faith.
Young Earth and the Biblical flood are simply really stupid ideas that have been refuted for hundreds of years.

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 Message 343 by Faith, posted 06-10-2017 9:11 AM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1705 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 345 of 519 (811676)
06-10-2017 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 335 by Faith
06-10-2017 2:59 AM


I worked it all out a few years ago. The tectonic movement would have been imperceptible to normal observation after a few hundred years. During the first weeks you could have stood on the western edge of Europe and watched the Americas sail away a few feet per day, but there was nobody there at the time to see it. Probably too much volcanism there at the time anyway.
So, with all of this catastrophic tectonism, there were no tsunamis and no noticeable earthquakes?
And, about all of that volcanism... you really think that no one noticed? I mean if you compressed 4 ga of volcanism into a couple thousand years, that would make the planet permanently toxic. Add to that the extraterrestrial impacts and solar events. Do you have any idea where we would be now?
And animals didn't change at any unusual rate at all, same as today. But they did spread out far and wide, and within a few hundred years of the Ark's landing would have reached the ends of the earth.
So, all kinds of animals including large mammals could repopulate the earth, but humans couldn't record so many global catastrophic events?
You have just annihilated YEC.
Maybe you should work it out for a few more years.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 335 by Faith, posted 06-10-2017 2:59 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 346 by Faith, posted 06-10-2017 2:48 PM edge has replied

  
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