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Author | Topic: The 2016 United States Presidential Election | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
vimesey Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 1398 From: Birmingham, England Joined: |
I have no idea who Crowdstrike are or aren't. I would need to find out more about them.
Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?
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Taq Member Posts: 10045 Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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Faith writes: The true claim is that Russia was responsible for exposing Clinton's emails (and other similar things I can never keep in mind) and in that way influenced the election by turning people against her. Even that is seriously in doubt, however. I'm still waiting to see if Assange has anything to say about it since he SEEMED to promise to reveal the actual source.
The real question is why you are putting so much effort into exonerating Russia. Why is that? Why are Republicans flocking to Russia's aid? Don't you find that troubling? Russia set up an air defense network in Syria. Last I checked, the Syrian rebels that Russia is fighting against have no airplanes. Who do you think those missiles are meant for? The really easy answer is that they are meant for US planes. Why are you defending a government that is threatening the US? Russia has also attacked its neighbors. Russia has already taken over Crimea, and has attempted to retake Ukraine. While Putin is playing the role of Hitler, you cheer on as Trump plays the part of Neville Chamberlain. Why? What is it about Russia that you find so wonderful?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I was responding only to Riggamortis' agreement that it would be sttupid for a hacking operation to leave such blatant clues to its identify, that's all.
That's right. Except that you referred to his agreement as evidence. No I did not. All I said was that we agree that what McAfee said about how hackers wouldn't give away their identity like that is good evidence that the report is phony.
I think pointing out that it was no such thing was appropriate. Do you have a rebuttal? Yeah, you missed the whole simple point. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The real question is why you are putting so much effort into exonerating Russia. Why is that? Why are Republicans flocking to Russia's aid? Don't you find that troubling? It's the sort of thing that could start a war and I'd rather not start a war, especially over something that isn't even true; if it's false, which it looks like to me, then somebody may have invented it in order to start a war. Like the entire intelligence community invented WMDs in Iraq to start another war once. I'd rather not. Or maybe there is some other hidden purpose. For instance it insinuates that it was done in favor of Trump. If it's not true, which it appears to me to be the case, who has a motive to insinuate that? Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
No I did not. All I said was that we agree that what McAfee said about how hackers wouldn't give away their identity like that is good evidence that the report is phony. Again, what McAfee said is not evidence. What he gave and what Riggy stated are opinions about the evidence. Evidence consists of facts and not opinions about facts. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
No I did not. All I said was that we agree that what McAfee said about how hackers wouldn't give away their identity like that is good evidence that the report is phony. Again, what McAfee said is not evidence. What he gave and what Riggy stated are opinions about the evidence. Evidence consists of facts and not opinions about facts. I note that you are changing what you said, which perhaps wasn't what you meant but still it was what you said; but now you are hairsplitting and to what purpose? It's a fantastically good inference that such weirdly obvious evidence that points straight at Russia when even a tenth-rate hacker would make some effort to cover his tracks, is as good as evidence against the report. In other words the evidence in the report is good evidence in itself that the report is bogus. At the very least it's extremely strange that a hacker would be so naive. If you have another explanation, please float it. If you just want to suggest a more accurate word, go ahead, what does it serve to make a big deal out of something so obvious? Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Percy Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
In case it hasn't been posted yet, here's a link to the NYT reference to the "unclassified summary of a highly sensitive assessment from American intelligence and law enforcement agencies":
I'm going to suggest that when anyone references a part of the report that they believe true or think false that they quote the relevant text from the report. AbE: Some may prefer this direct link to the PDF: Background to Assessing Russian Activities and Intentions in Recent US Elections: The Analytic Process and Cyber Incident Attribution AbE2: Just to reduce potential confusion, the PDF begins with a couple pages of background information, then follows on page 4 of the PDF with the actual document Assessing Russian Activities and Intentions in Recent US Elections. --Percy Edited by Percy, : AbE. Edited by Percy, : AbE2.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I note that you are changing what you said, which perhaps wasn't what you meant but still it was what you said; but now you are hairsplitting and to what purpose? No. I did not make a change. Nothing in Riggy's post constitutes evidence despite your claiming that it was "good evidence". All I have done additionally is spell out what was in that post. And again, what you call an inference is strictly an opinion. And in understanding whether the opinion is valuable, we should take into account the fact that McAfee is pretty flaky.
At the very least it's extremely strange that a hacker would be so naive. If you have another explanation, please float it. Again, you are relying on McAfee's opinion of the ability of hackers to conceal their tracks. His opinion may or may not be correct. Generally speaking, arguments that a crime is too stupid for a criminal to commit are not what I consider persuasive. ABE:
If you just want to suggest a more accurate word, go ahead, what does it serve to make a big deal out of something so obvious? Why are you trying to oversell the basis for your opinion. 1) The statement is not evidence.2) The conclusion is at most plausible. It may or may not be correct. You can form your own opinion any way you want to. But if you are making an attempt to be persuasive, don't be surprised if your excesses are pointed out. Reasonable people can reach different conclusions about what to believe. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2
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I would note that it also relies on McAfee being familiar with the actual evidence - which is mostly still classified. The Crowdstrike blog entry I linked earlier gives a rather different impression - and Crowdstrike actually did investigate the hack.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Rread what you wrote. You said I treated RM's comment as evidence. I DID NOT. And I'm not addressing anything else you say until you straighten this out.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Thanks Percy.
Too statements in the report:
quote: In short, analyses that complain that the report does not contain the evidence are likely to be off base because that is not the purpose of the report. What some critiques are doing is using secondary indicators in lieu of having any kind of evidence or facts to attack/address the conclusions. That's fine, but you have to acknowledge the short comings of such things. Is AGW really bogus because Al Gore believes in it? Intelligence folks lie, so the report is full of lies is another such argument. Secondly, claims that the Russians are too sophisticated to do X does not really overcome evidence that they actually did X. Again, such arguments are secondary arguments to use when there is no primary evidence or alternatively when you don't understand the evidence. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
You said I treated RM's comment as evidence. I DID NOT. And I'm not addressing anything else you say until you straighten this out Then I suspect you will be waiting indefinitely. Here Message 832 is what you said in response to RMs comment, Faith:
Faith writes: Seems like good evidence to me too. Notice the too at the end of the sentence. And to what were you responding? Message 831 Rigsy writes: That is a good point, any decent hacker can cover their tracks pretty well. Especially so, you would think, of a trained intelligence agent. That statement is not evidence. It is an opinion. Did I make a mistake about what you were referring to. Apparently not according to you:
quote: Again, that agreement is not evidence. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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Percy Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Faith writes: John McAfee, known for his work in cybersecurity, says the supposed evidence given in the CIA report for Russian hacking shows such a low level of intelligence competence that alone proves it false: that is, the evidence they give is that a Russian Cyrillic keyboard was used,... Neither the word "Cyrillic" nor "keyboard" appear in the report (Assessing Russian Activities and Intentions in Recent US Elections).
...the time/date stamp indicated an origin in Moscow,... Neither the word "stamp" nor "timestamp" nor "date" appear in the report.
...the IP number was from Russia,... Neither the acronym "IP" nor the word "address" (that's what it really is, an IP address) nor the word "number" as a synonym for address appear in the report. John McAfee appears to be making things up. --Percy
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
It's the sort of thing that could start a war and I'd rather not start a war, especially over something that isn't even true; You are missing the point; apparently deliberately. Nobody is threatening to start a war over the hacking. Instead they are talking about sanctions and pulling some diplomats. On the other hand, the things Taq cites are actually provocative and warlike way (missiles targeting US planes and threats to NATO countries) yet you give them a free pass. Compared to those things, hacking a couple of computers, the way say China has done to us to steal corporate secrets is a drop in the budget. What is at stake here is not whether or not we go to war with Russia, but whether or not we treat them as our buxom buddy. Even Trump seems at this point to acknowledge that the Russians probably hacked into the DNC. Reince Priebus Acknowledges Russia Was Behind Hacks
quote: Whatever the truth is, surely Priebus is right about the criticism due the DNC. On the other hand, what was Watergate about? Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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Percy Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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NoNukes writes: quote: Whatever the truth is, surely Priebus is right about the criticism due the DNC. According to the report, the Republicans were hacked, too:
quote: Republicans might not want to be too smug, lest they find their own emails released once the bloom is off the Trump/Putin love-fest. --Percy
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