The snake lied when he said they would not surely die. because they did die, first spiritually (when they could no longer communicate with God as they had before), and then also physically hundreds of years later. They would never have died at all if they hadn't eaten the fruit of the forbidden tree.
Utter nonsense Faith. There is nothing in Genesis 2&3 that shows they died spiritually or that they would not have died had they not eaten he fruit of knowledge. They might have become immortal had they eaten from the Tree of Life but they had not and so would have died just like any other living things (except perhaps for certain clonal critters). Nor is there any indication they no longer communicated with God as they had before.
It is the God that is the liar when She says they would die the day they ate from the fruit. The serpent said that if they would eat from the tree of knowledge they would become more like God and in fact, the God character says that is exactly what happened. That's what scared the God character so much She had to chase them out of the Garden while they had not yet been made immortal.
It doesn’t change the fact that eating the fruit didn’t kill them or guarantee that they would die.
You can impose whatever you like in the story, but in context it is pretty clear that Eve was worried that the fruit was poisonous and the serpent truthfully told her it wasn’t. The serpent told the truth about the actual effects of the fruit, too.
Maybe the serpent thought that if enough time passed they'd just kind of forget that the serpent was totally dead set against God and dead set against any godly benefit to Adam and Eve whatsoever.
Maybe concealed around his apparent concern to "helpfully" clarify to Eve what God said, concealed his diametric opposition to God and His word being at all.
And do you have a courage problem admitting where you stand about God being at all for you ?
What you fail to understand is that they DID die "in that same day" because death is a process that eats away at our human frame, first by destroying the faculty known as spirit, and that began that same day. It's our spirit that is regenerated by belief in the death of Christ for us.
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What you fail to understand is that they DID die "in that same day" because death is a process that eats away at our human frame, first by destroying the faculty known as spirit, and that began that same day
That is still not the same as literally dying. According to the Bible Adam and Eve lived a long time after eating the fruit.
You are insisting on the meaning of "literally dying" as in completely physically dying. All the text says is that they would die the same day. And they did.
I've also got to comment that it's very odd you modern revisionists don't recognize that the text has been read since it was written and nobody until you accused it of saying what you say it says. Shouldn't basic humility caution you that Moses himself and everyone who read it down the centuries might know what it means?
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You are insisting on the meaning of "literally dying" as in completely physically dying
I am insisting that it can only be literally true if it is literally true.
If you are going to accuse me of failing to understand you at least owe me the courtesy of dealing with what I actually said. And what I actually said is that it was not *literally* true that they died the same day.
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I've also got to comment that it's very odd you modern revisionists don't recognize that the text has been read since it was written and nobody until you accused it of saying what you say it says. Shouldn't basic humility caution you that Moses himself and everyone who read it down the centuries might know what it means?
Of course you have no idea of how it was read or interpreted that far back. Maybe you should learn to stop making things up and expecting to be believed.
If anyone is going to be called revisionist it should be those who promote a strained interpretation which lacks support in the text of the story.
I know that from the beginning it had to be understood to mean that God told the truth and the snake lied, any other idea is ridiculous and blasphemous.
The story clearly indicates that the snake told the truth, and even under your interpretation God allowed Adam and Eve to misunderstand an unclear warning.
Call Genesis 2 and 3 blasphemous if you like, but then you have to explain its inclusion in the Bible.
I know that from the beginning it had to be understood to mean that God told the truth and the snake lied, any other idea is ridiculous and blasphemous.
That does not change the facts or truth of what was actually written Faith but only represents the picayune little god your Cult has created.
The story says there was no Fall.
The story says that Adam & Eve became more like God.
The story says the serpent told the truth and in fact the God character in the Bible affirms that the serpent told the truth and says directly that they have become more like god.
Adam & Eve did not die spiritually or stop communicating with God or stop receiving blessings from God.
If you believe the Bible, if you are a "Biblical" Christian, then you should at least try to be honest about what the Bible says.
As the centuries have passed, here and there Christians have developed into maturity without seeing all the promises of God fulfilled. God has His timing.
They did not die in vain. The Fifth Seal of Revelation shows a vision of these departed overcomers beseeching God as to how long His toleration will last.
And when He opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had ben slain because of the word of God and because of the testimony hich they had.
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Master, holy and true, will You not judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?
and to each of them was given a white robe; and it was said to them that they should rest yet a little while, until also the number of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed, even as they were, is completed." (Rev. 6:9-11)
1.) It should include ALL saints from ALL ages who may have died at the hands of worldly people because of their faith in God. That is from all ages in which people of God have held faith in God's word.
The man-child will consist of ALL these past saints slain.
2.) They are told to be patient. God's time of toleration is yet to extend further, but not indefinitely.
3.) They are told that others LIKE them still are destined to be killed as they were. The number has to be filled up.
It almost appears that God knows of some number of such is needed before He can resurrect them to be co-rulers over the earth with Christ.
4.) As the ages progress not ALL saints so mature. The number of ALL those living with faith is not equal to the number so utterly consecrated to live absolutely so.
5.) The announcement in Revelation 12:10-11 fits very well as answer to the cry of these saints. The answer to "HOW LONG" God's toleration will last is replied to by God by their resurrection and rapture as a corporate - collective unit from the whole body of believers - a man-child.
The AVENGING of God upon persecutors of saints upon the earth certainly begins in full during the great tribulation. The WOES of that time consist not only of Satan coming down to earth in wrath but also in God judging the followers of Satan with His own wrath. It is a period of three and one half years in which His (God's) wrath has come.
And the nations were angry, and Your wrath came,
and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to give the reward to Your slaved the prophets and to the saints and to those who fear Your name ... (See Rev. 11:18)
Perhaps a few posts I will dedicate to this ANSWERING of the beseeching of the saints in the Fifth Seal. Others alive on the earth are praying likewise to God similar prayers.
How long is the period of Divine toleration to last ?
Because God's judgment does not come immediately some sinners are emboldened to wax worse and worse in their blasphemies and insults against God. The same tendency can be practiced by disobedient religious as well.
The toleration spurs them on to double down in their sins. From this addiction man needs deliverance through the power of the Holy Spirit.
Because the sentence against an evil deed is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the children of men is fully set within them to do evil. (Ecc. 8:11)
Not only is God accumulating victors and overcomers to formulate a man-child to resurrect and catch up to His throne in heaven. The disobedient are accumulating divine wrath against their behavior.
But according to your hardness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will render to each according to is works ... (Rom. 2:6)
God's long suffering and toleration is meant to encourage men and women to rather repent and turn to Him with their hearts.
Or do you despise the riches of His kindness and forbearance and long-suffering, not knowing that God's kindness is leading you to repentance? (v.4)
Jaywill, YOU don't half preach a load of total BOLLOX
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
You have to give him credit for being thorough! I respect jaywill for his scholarly approach to scripture. Though jar blatantly labels him as an apologist, I have argued before that even atheists have their own apologetics and defenses against faith and belief and that the motives and passions behind their message are questionable at best.
Matt is entertaining in a raw sense though the motives of his rants and prejudice against the Christians are suspect.
Sadly, most of the callers to his show are also quite ignorant and unlearned.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
I respect jaywill for his scholarly approach to scripture. Though jar blatantly labels him as an apologist, I have argued before that even atheists have their own apologetics and defenses against faith and belief and that the motives and passions behind their message are questionable at best.
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