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Author Topic:   Straightforward, hard-to-answer-questions about the Bible/Christianity
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 361 of 477 (562467)
05-29-2010 12:57 AM
Reply to: Message 360 by dennis780
05-29-2010 12:42 AM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
Read the bible. God knew in advance Satan was jealous of God. he created the tree to expose him to the Angels. Like I said before, God is just, and would not punish Satan for a crime he didn't commit.
I don't believe that is anywhere in the bible.
And God freed people from slavery in the Bible. The only times God alowed his people to be enslaved was when they did not obey him, and he always freed them after.
Wow oh Wow. So this is how you justify slavery? So I guess how we* enslaved the africans is OK since we* let them go later on, right?
*By "we" I mean americans
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

"A still more glorious dawn awaits
Not a sunrise, but a galaxy rise
A morning filled with 400 billion suns
The rising of the milky way"
-Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 360 by dennis780, posted 05-29-2010 12:42 AM dennis780 has not replied

Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 362 of 477 (562483)
05-29-2010 2:44 AM
Reply to: Message 359 by dennis780
05-29-2010 12:36 AM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
dennis780 writes:
there is no truth in morality. Morality is a personal belief.
If morality is a personal belief, it is subjective. If morality was independent of the mind it would be objective.
It seems that you skipped over the substance of what I was saying to parrot some senseless "Confucius says" philosophy.
dennis780 writes:
Actually, by divorcing her I would be forcing my morality (and Gods, since infedility is grounds for divorce by biblical standards), because it influences her negitively.
You seem to be arguing that behaving according to your own morality is necessarily forcing that morality on others. I don't see how your behavior is going to prevent your wife from having her own standards of morality, and behaving according to them.
For instance, there are many people in the world who hold moral stances different from your own. Are you capable of exercising your moral stance?
dennis780 writes:
Since I am not perfect, how is it logical to consider what she did immoral?
Since when is perfection required to judge something immoral? In fact, the recognition of imperfection carries with it the implication that you can recognize and differentiate between moral and immoral actions. If you can find fault in your own behavior, then you can similarly find fault in others'.
dennis780 writes:
Since morality is not concrete anywhere in the world, I fail to see the relevance.
It is relevant in the sense that we have established morality as subjective. You almost continued on to the next step in this process on your own:
dennis780 writes:
If there is a supreme entity, I think it's level of morality on any subject would be given more weight than mine or yours.
Why?
Now this is a trickier question than it might at first appear. Is God's opinion on morality more important than our own because it is really powerful? That is the "big stick" code of morality, where the biggest bully on the block makes the rules. I reject that as unacceptable.
Or does God make the rules because it created us? I again reject that as unacceptable; even though parents are afforded certain privileges in raising children, it is generally agreed that once they reach a certain age and maturity they deserve to make their own decisions. You are not a slave to the will of your parents forever.
So, what makes the moral opinion of some "supreme being" more important than our own?
dennis780 writes:
I believe this is self refuting. Define perfectly moral.
Given that morality is subjective, moral perfection is also subjective. If one's behavior conforms perfectly to what one considers moral, that action is perfectly moral in their eyes.
But, the phrase was used in the colloquial sense of "perfectly reasonable", or "perfectly normal". I wasn't attempting to establish some ideal form of behavior.
dennis780 writes:
Deuteronomy teaches that no teaching or prophet will conflict with any other, or it is not from God. So if an interpretation conflicts with other scriptural teaching, then it has been interpreted incorrectly.
There are several problems with this. First, Deuteronomy is part of the Bible so that teaching could itself be misinterpreted. You cannot use an interpretation of the Bible to determine if that interpretation is correct, in the same way you cannot fly to the moon by tugging on your bootstraps.
Second, if an interpretation of the Bible conflicts with a different scriptural interpretation then you still don't know which one is right. It could be either one, or even neither. A three-way split makes it even more complicated. People can even have different opinions on if the interpretations even conflict or not.
I don't see you getting much mileage out of that method at all.
dennis780 writes:
They did not become like God from eating the fruit ... They were already like God before eating the fruit.
Genesis 3:22 "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil..."
This passage specifically states otherwise. This is very clearly defined as a change, and it is that change that gets them kicked out of the garden.
(As an aside, it goes on to point out that God kicks Adam and Eve out specifically so they cannot gain eternal life. Why Christians think God offers it to them later is puzzling.)
dennis780 writes:
But why should I force my morality on my brother by saying he has had whatever I lend him too long? How long is too long? Why is my morality more important than his?
You seem to be suggesting that if someone stole from you, you would be unwilling to "force your morality" upon them and maintain your right to your own property. Not only do I find this concept ludicrous, but I also very much doubt you actually hold this position. Behaving according to your own moral code does not in general prevent others from behaving according to their different moral codes.
Furthermore, with such a view you damage your own case. By what right does God then "force" his subjective morality on us?
dennis780 writes:
Gods teachings are moral, because they appeal to the higher nature of man.
Says who? What defines "higher nature", and how can you prove that it isn't a subjective label? God teaches people to stone their children to death for disobedience, to enslave their fellow man, and kills babies for the crimes of their ancestors. I don't see how that appeals to a higher nature of man at all, if anything it appeals to the base bloodthirsty nature of ignorant desert tribes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by dennis780, posted 05-29-2010 12:36 AM dennis780 has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 363 of 477 (562502)
05-29-2010 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 360 by dennis780
05-29-2010 12:42 AM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
The only times God alowed his people to be enslaved was when they did not obey him, and he always freed them after.
But it is ok to enslave people that are not this god's people. Correct?
So it is ok to enslave non-christians(according to your definition of christianity).

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 360 by dennis780, posted 05-29-2010 12:42 AM dennis780 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 364 by Peg, posted 05-30-2010 7:26 PM Theodoric has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 364 of 477 (562573)
05-30-2010 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 363 by Theodoric
05-29-2010 10:27 AM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
Theodoric writes:
But it is ok to enslave people that are not this god's people. Correct?
So it is ok to enslave non-christians(according to your definition of christianity).
the form of slavery that was practiced by the isrealites was completely different to the abusive forms of slavery practiced by other nations.
The law for the isrealites was that you could NOT kidnap a person and sell them as a slave the way the nations did....if you did you would be put to death.
Exodus 21:16 And one who kidnaps a man and who actually sells him or in whose hand he has been found is to be put to death without fail"
Slaves were to be paid compensation by being set free if their owner injured them.
Ex 21:26-27 "And in case a man should strike the eye of his slave man or the eye of his slave girl and he really ruins it, he is to send him away as one set free in compensation for his eye. 27And if it should be the tooth of his slave man or the tooth of his slave girl that he knocks out, he is to send him away as one set free in compensation for his tooth.
And a blanket rule was that slaves were to be set free after 6 years of service.
Deut 15:12-14In case there should be sold to you your brother, a Hebrew or a Hebrewess, and he has served you six years, then in the seventh year you should send him out from you as one set free. 13...you must not send him out empty-handed. 14You should surely equip him with something from your flock and your threshing floor and your oil and winepress.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 363 by Theodoric, posted 05-29-2010 10:27 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 365 by Theodoric, posted 05-30-2010 8:03 PM Peg has replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 365 of 477 (562574)
05-30-2010 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 364 by Peg
05-30-2010 7:26 PM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
So your argument was that your god's chosen people were the enlightened of slave owners? Other people wanted to be slaves to the Israelites?
the form of slavery that was practiced by the isrealites was completely different to the abusive forms of slavery practiced by other nations.
I know you won't but I have to ask. Care to provide any evidence for this assertion. You really can't use that book, what's it called? or yeah the bible, because it says nothing about other contemporary slave owning societies does it.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 364 by Peg, posted 05-30-2010 7:26 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 366 by Peg, posted 05-30-2010 8:36 PM Theodoric has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 366 of 477 (562575)
05-30-2010 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 365 by Theodoric
05-30-2010 8:03 PM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
The isrealites were only 'enlightened' because God gave them laws and standards. Before that they were like any other nation...they DID sell their own family members into slavery (see story of Joseph) so they certainly were not enlightened on their own....but the point is that God did not approve of slavery and so placed very strong conditions on how it was to be practiced among the isrealites. They didnt always follow the rules though and when they didnt God displayed his distaste for their actions by allowing other nations to invade them and take them into slavery themselves.
Theodoric writes:
You really can't use that book, what's it called? or yeah the bible, because it says nothing about other contemporary slave owning societies does it.
The Syrians would kidnap people to sell them as slaves.
2Kings 5:2 "And the Syrians, for their part, had gone out as marauder bands, and they got to take captive from the land of Israel a little girl
The nations of Tyre and Sydon would kidnap and sell people and they did this to the jews.
Joel 3:4-6 , "O Tyre and Si′don and all YOU regions of Phi‧lis′ti‧a...6and the sons of Judah and the sons of Jerusalem YOU have sold to the sons of the Greeks, for the purpose of removing them far from their own territory
The egyptions put the isrealites to forced labor
Ex 1:13Consequently the Egyptians made the sons of Israel slave under tyranny. 14And they kept making their life bitter with hard slavery at clay mortar and bricks and with every form of slavery in the field, yes, every form of slavery of theirs in which they used them as slaves under tyranny

This message is a reply to:
 Message 365 by Theodoric, posted 05-30-2010 8:03 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2296 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 367 of 477 (562587)
05-31-2010 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 366 by Peg
05-30-2010 8:36 PM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
Peg writes:
but the point is that God did not approve of slavery and so placed very strong conditions on how it was to be practiced among the isrealites.
So, god, disaproving of slavery so greatly, did not go and tell the Isrealites that they can't keep slaves, no he goes and tells them they can and as long as they don't beat them so severely that they die, just so severely that they can get up again in a couple of days, it's all nice and dandy for them to treat human beings as property. Why not just tell them it is wrong, if it is in fact wrong? He told them plenty of other far less important stuff was wrong, yet this rather major thing, he never condemned.
I don't like this god fellow, nor his logic, nor his morals.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by Peg, posted 05-30-2010 8:36 PM Peg has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 369 by dennis780, posted 06-06-2010 3:05 PM Huntard has replied

dennis780
Member (Idle past 4777 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010


Message 368 of 477 (563692)
06-06-2010 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 357 by Theodoric
05-29-2010 12:02 AM


Re: Whatt!!!!
"Are you trying to say that Noah was a christian? If so please try to explain how the heck that works. Are you saying there didn't need to be a christ in order for there to be christianity?"
Christianity is a labelled name. Remember that Christians did not choose to be called this. When Paul when to Antioch, a few years after Jesus' death, he was called it. This was a name given to believers by people OUTSIDE the church. So when I refer to any believers as christians, I simply am calling them believers by a name that is recognized. I myself (in previous posts, not sure if on this thread) have said I do not consider myself any form of labelled christian, but a believer in the Bible, and in Christ.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 357 by Theodoric, posted 05-29-2010 12:02 AM Theodoric has not replied

dennis780
Member (Idle past 4777 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010


Message 369 of 477 (563699)
06-06-2010 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 367 by Huntard
05-31-2010 9:31 AM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
"So, god, disaproving of slavery so greatly, did not go and tell the Isrealites that they can't keep slaves, no he goes and tells them they can and as long as they don't beat them so severely that they die"
You are misunderstanding what he is saying completely. Slavery was not, in most cases FORCED. Since the most recent form of slavery (blacks) was forced, not allowing them to educate, or own any possesions of any kind, we view slavery as brutal, and demeaning to the person or race. This is not the case. Slaves in the Bible sometimes initiated the agreement. In fact, Kings would refer to anyone working under them as slaves, even though they were free men.
Exodus 21:5 But if the servant plainly says, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go free,' 6 then his master shall bring him to the judges. He shall also bring him to the door, or to the doorpost, and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him forever.
Ever heard of a slave that did NOT want to be free? Thats because modern slavery is different from previous. Even the Encyclopedia Brittanica talks about slaves, and how they produced much of the worlds cotton, and other commodities.
Exodus 21:16 He who kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall surely be put to death.
Proverbs 29:21 He who pampers his slave from childhood Will in the end find him to be a son.
All this aside. Slavery is irrelevant. God does not see his creations as slaves.
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 367 by Huntard, posted 05-31-2010 9:31 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 370 by Theodoric, posted 06-06-2010 3:12 PM dennis780 has replied
 Message 371 by Huntard, posted 06-06-2010 3:28 PM dennis780 has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 370 of 477 (563701)
06-06-2010 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 369 by dennis780
06-06-2010 3:05 PM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
Slavery was not, in most cases FORCED.
Evidence please.
In fact, Kings would refer to anyone working under them as slaves, even though they were free men.
Evidence please.
Just because you say something doesn't make it true.
Even the Encyclopedia Brittanica talks about slaves, and how they produced much of the worlds cotton, and other commodities.
What does this have to do with the discussion? Your previous comments invalidate this comment as having any support for you. You acknowledge that american slavery was brutal, but now you adjust your stand because slavery produced a lot of cotton? WTF??

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 369 by dennis780, posted 06-06-2010 3:05 PM dennis780 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 372 by dennis780, posted 06-06-2010 4:16 PM Theodoric has not replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2296 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 371 of 477 (563709)
06-06-2010 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 369 by dennis780
06-06-2010 3:05 PM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
dennis780 writes:
You are misunderstanding what he is saying completely. Slavery was not, in most cases FORCED.
Yes it was.
Since the most recent form of slavery (blacks) was forced, not allowing them to educate, or own any possesions of any kind, we view slavery as brutal, and demeaning to the person or race.
No. I view it as bad because it means that a person is property of another person.
This is not the case. Slaves in the Bible sometimes initiated the agreement. In fact, Kings would refer to anyone working under them as slaves, even though they were free men.
Evidence? This doesn't mean treating another human being as property is in any way right.
Exodus 21:5 But if the servant plainly says, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go free,' 6 then his master shall bring him to the judges. He shall also bring him to the door, or to the doorpost, and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him forever.
Yes, that's a very nice loophole built into the system. You have to set your slave free after a number of years, but if you make him fall in love with a woman, marry them and perhaps let them have children, then you can just keep on being its master. Also, how nice of the master to pierce someone's ear.
Ever heard of a slave that did NOT want to be free?
No.
Thats because modern slavery is different from previous. Even the Encyclopedia Brittanica talks about slaves, and how they produced much of the worlds cotton, and other commodities.
So? It's still wrong to treat another human being as property.
Exodus 21:16 He who kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall surely be put to death.
Proverbs 29:21 He who pampers his slave from childhood Will in the end find him to be a son.
Exodus 21:20 - 21:
And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.
Tells you that it's ok t beat a slave, as long as he can get up again in 2 days. Calls the slave someone's money
Leviticus 19:20-22:
And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free. And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, even a ram for a trespass offering. And the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before the LORD for his sin which he hath done: and the sin which he hath done shall be forgiven him.
Tells you that if you as a master rape a slavegirl,she will be whipped, and if she's not engaged, the master will have to do absolutely nothing, if she is engagaed or married, he has to make a small offering.
Leviticus 25:44-46:
Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.
Tells you that the Israelites were allowed to buy slaves and that they could be inherited as property.
Clearly, god doesn't want slavery to take place. Oh wait, no he doesn't, he's fine with it. As long as you obey certain rules.
All this aside. Slavery is irrelevant. God does not see his creations as slaves.
But his creations see each other as slaves. So, what does god do? Does he make it perfectly clear that we should not treat each other as property? Nope, in fact, he allows it and sets up rules for it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 369 by dennis780, posted 06-06-2010 3:05 PM dennis780 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 374 by Pauline, posted 06-09-2010 8:35 AM Huntard has replied
 Message 377 by Pauline, posted 06-10-2010 9:10 AM Huntard has not replied

dennis780
Member (Idle past 4777 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010


Message 372 of 477 (563727)
06-06-2010 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 370 by Theodoric
06-06-2010 3:12 PM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
"Evidence please."
Lev 25:39 'And if one of your brethren who dwells by you becomes poor, and sells HIMSELF TO YOU, you shall not compel him to serve you as a slave. 40 As a hired servant and a sojourner he shall be with you, and shall serve you until the year of the Jubilee.
(my capitals)
"but now you adjust your stand because slavery produced a lot of cotton? WTF??"
No, my point is that slavery was never the negitive, racial thing we see it as today. In the 1700's and 1800's, there were no social 'nets' to catch those who lost possessions or money, and would work as slaves. This was a common practice worldwide, in that this only ment that one human was owned by another. By selling yourself, you were given security, and protection.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 370 by Theodoric, posted 06-06-2010 3:12 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 373 by hERICtic, posted 06-07-2010 3:08 PM dennis780 has replied

hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4517 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 373 of 477 (563981)
06-07-2010 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 372 by dennis780
06-06-2010 4:16 PM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
Deuteronomy 21:10-14: "When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her [i.e. rape her or engage in consensual sex], and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her."
During war, one may take a female against her will. If he dislikes her, he can let her go. If he likes her, shes his.
Sure...theres nothing negative about this at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 372 by dennis780, posted 06-06-2010 4:16 PM dennis780 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 383 by dennis780, posted 06-19-2010 7:32 AM hERICtic has replied

Pauline
Member (Idle past 3736 days)
Posts: 283
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 374 of 477 (564241)
06-09-2010 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 371 by Huntard
06-06-2010 3:28 PM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
dennis writes:
You are misunderstanding what he is saying completely. Slavery was not, in most cases FORCED.
Huntard writes:
Yes it was.
Slavery was neither forced nor advocated, it was only tolerated and allowed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 371 by Huntard, posted 06-06-2010 3:28 PM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 375 by Huntard, posted 06-09-2010 8:42 AM Pauline has not replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2296 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 375 of 477 (564243)
06-09-2010 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 374 by Pauline
06-09-2010 8:35 AM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
Dr. Sing writes:
Slavery was neither forced nor advocated, it was only tolerated and allowed.
It was forced on the slaves. That's what I meant. Nobody was forced to take slaves, but you can't say that a slave was not forced into slavery.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 374 by Pauline, posted 06-09-2010 8:35 AM Pauline has not replied

Replies to this message:
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