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Author Topic:   Why is it that God couldn't have made Creation with evolution?
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 823 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 76 of 167 (523823)
09-12-2009 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Archangel
09-12-2009 6:31 PM


I knew that evolution was a pseudo science when I took evo 101 in college and was told on day one that asking questions which conflict with the so called accepted conclusion isn't allowed. When the professor couldn't answer my most basic questions from my way of thinking, I knew right off this science was a farce.
That question didn't happen to be "where is the crocoduck?", did it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Archangel, posted 09-12-2009 6:31 PM Archangel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Archangel, posted 09-12-2009 8:40 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
Archangel
Member (Idle past 1379 days)
Posts: 134
Joined: 09-09-2009


Message 77 of 167 (523824)
09-12-2009 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by SammyJean
09-12-2009 7:42 PM


Re: God using evolution
SammyJean writes:
The medical advances you have seen and will see in your lifetime rely directly on biology. With out our understanding of the biological sciences the medical advances would not be possible, period.
No doubt. I haven't stated otherwise.
And as Dobzhansky said "Nothing in Biology makes sense except in the light of evolution." As a biologist in the biomedical field I know this quotation couldn't be more true.
You mean the evolutionary biologist and Russian Orthodox Christian Theodosius Dobzhansky,who was criticising anti-evolution creationism and espousing theistic evolution? That Dobzhansky? And i'm supposed to take his word for it just because he said the words? Have you nothing substantial as evidence that modern genetic discoveries offer any actual insights into proving how, why or if original life spontaneously appeared around 3.5 billion years ago? You know, around the alleged 1 billion years after the earth was supposedly formed with a molten surface and an atmosphere of sulfuric acid, hydrogen and Helium as is theorized?
And if they can only theorize about what the chemicals were in that early dead planet, but can prove nothing absolutely, then how do they conclude how life spontaneously began at all? Talk about MAGIC AND LIVING BY FAITH IN THE UNSEEN AND UNKNOWN. YOU GUYS EPITOMIZE IT.
Do you get it Sammy? Your whole modern belief system of evolution is based on a foundation of quick sand which is unprovable by any level of reason or rational. Now aren't you, an intelligent guy ashamed of yourself for buying into such unprovable drivel? Modern day biology is fine. It leads to current and real time discoveries. But to apply that knowledge to the totally unknown and unprovable events of the distant past is ludicrous, not to mention self deluding.

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Archangel
Member (Idle past 1379 days)
Posts: 134
Joined: 09-09-2009


Message 78 of 167 (523825)
09-12-2009 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by hooah212002
09-12-2009 8:23 PM


hooah212002 writes:
That question didn't happen to be "where is the crocoduck?", did it?
Ahhh, another serious debater with actual evidence to offer I see. NOT!!! All I actually see here is that I am wasting my time since you highly educated intellectuals have absolutely no answers to any of the points being debated here. I was told at another forum by a member from here that I was afraid to come here because you brainiacs would kick my butt. What a joke that was.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by hooah212002, posted 09-12-2009 8:23 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by hooah212002, posted 09-12-2009 8:46 PM Archangel has replied
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 823 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 79 of 167 (523826)
09-12-2009 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Archangel
09-12-2009 8:40 PM


Ahhh, another serious debater with actual evidence to offer I see. NOT!!! All I actually see here is that I am wasting my time since you highly educated intellectuals have absolutely no answers to any of the points being debated here. I was told at another forum by a member from here that I was afraid to come here because you brainiacs would kick my butt. What a joke that was.
You have yet to provide anything substantial, worth "debating". You are throwing garbage around, all the while saying "HAH, refute that, you HUMANIST!". It is not in the position of the defendant to prove why is he is NOT guilty, however, the plaintiff to provide substantial evidence. So far, you have provided none.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Archangel, posted 09-12-2009 8:40 PM Archangel has replied

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SammyJean
Member (Idle past 4095 days)
Posts: 87
From: Fremont, CA, USA
Joined: 03-28-2009


Message 80 of 167 (523830)
09-12-2009 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Archangel
09-12-2009 8:40 PM


Ahhh, another serious debater with actual evidence to offer I see. NOT!!! All I actually see here is that I am wasting my time since you highly educated intellectuals have absolutely no answers to any of the points being debated here. I was told at another forum by a member from here that I was afraid to come here because you brainiacs would kick my butt. What a joke that was.
No, it's because all us "highly educated intellectuals" realize that it doesn't matter how much evidence we give you, you will stubbornly hold on to your beliefs.

This message is a reply to:
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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 756 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 81 of 167 (523831)
09-12-2009 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Archangel
09-12-2009 7:35 PM


Now you're just being your typical sanctimonious and condescending self while once again not responding to anything I have actually forwarded.
No, I'm not doing that at all. You claimed that it ain't science unless you can reproduce it in the lab. Hoyle and Burbridge's crazy babbling about four protons colliding to make helium and three heliums colliding to make carbon have not been replicated on Earth as of yet. So that makes it your claim that stars run off some other-than-fusion energy source, not mine.
And if you'll frame a question for me to address about your c&p, I'll give it a shot.

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2128 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 82 of 167 (523834)
09-12-2009 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Archangel
09-12-2009 8:33 PM


Re: God using evolution
Corrected it for you:
Archangel writes:
Talk about MAGIC AND LIVING BY FAITH IN THE UNSEEN AND UNKNOWN. YOU GUYS EPITOMIZE IT.
Do you get it Sammy? Your whole modern belief system of evolution religious belief is based on a foundation of quick sand which is unprovable by any level of reason or rational. Now aren't you, an intelligent guy ashamed of yourself for buying into such unprovable drivel?
Seriously, you are obviously an adherent of a particular religious belief. Such beliefs are substantiated by no empirical evidence of any kind, and yet you poke fun at the theory of evolution for having "a foundation of quick sand????"
It would seem that you have little to point fingers at.
Care to get back to the original topic? Remember, dealing with deities and it/they being responsible for evolution? Have you any empirical evidence that there are any deities? Any empirical evidence for any supposed deities at all? Or are you going to keep ducking the question?
Edited by Coyote, : Punctuation

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

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Replies to this message:
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Archangel
Member (Idle past 1379 days)
Posts: 134
Joined: 09-09-2009


Message 83 of 167 (523835)
09-12-2009 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by hooah212002
09-12-2009 8:46 PM


hooah writes:
You have yet to provide anything substantial, worth "debating". You are throwing garbage around, all the while saying "HAH, refute that, you HUMANIST!". It is not in the position of the defendant to prove why is he is NOT guilty, however, the plaintiff to provide substantial evidence. So far, you have provided none.
Really? In every post I have written rational arguments which expose the weakness in what you all have said. And is this post which has gone completely ignored just throwing garbage around? Or is it that you all ignore that which you can't bluff through?
Rapid Adaptation of Finches not Evidence For Evolution
by Patrick Young, Ph.D.
The January 11th, 2002 issue of Science magazine reports on research confirming rapid adaptation of house finches in Montana and Alabama1,2 . The documents’ recount, (1) male and female finches grow differently both within and between populations, (2) males grow faster than females and have wider bills and longer tails in Alabama, and (3) females grow faster and are bigger overall in Montana3 . Both writings are proclaiming these finch adaptations are evidence for evolution.
It appears the definitions used for evolution have undergone more mutations than the theory as a whole. Even the Columbus Dispatch and our proposed new Ohio Science Standards report the definition of evolution is "a change in gene frequency in a population over time". Evolutionists justify this by asserting a definition can be altered as more information is acquired about the theory. However, the definition is now too general and surreptitiously conceals fundamental flaws in the theory itself. Furthermore, the delineation incorporates observations unrelated to the concepts of Darwinian evolution and effectively results in a classic "bait and switch".
The reason you can't dispute or refute the truth in this statement is because it is absolutely irrefutable and an indisputable truth in regard to how evolution works. But this isn't how real science works. Real science is testable, repeatable and provable with controls in a laboratory. But all you can do is take new scientific discoveries which tell us that something was observed, claim it as a fact and then make all kinds of wild assumptions regarding the how and why of it when you have no clue regarding that aspect of what it is you have just discovered through observation.
A more appropriate definition for evolution is, a continuous naturalistic, mechanistic process by which all living things have arisen from a single living source which itself arose by a similar process from a non-living, inanimate world. This definition requires evolutionists to justify their claims of simplicity to complexity, life from nonlife, and common ancestry.
Yet, nobody here even attempted to defend against the obvious and undeniable conflict and contradiction of evolution which this paragraph outlines, just as nobody took on the contradictions I exposed in my initial posts above. It seems like those who follow this philosophy are trained to ignore common sense facts as they blindly defend the party line.
The other definition seeks to include observed adaptations within species without a corresponding increase in genetic information. For an evolutionist to accomplish this, he must scientifically describe and observe the mechanism by which genetic information is increased via mutation. Since this has never been observed, and there is no viable mechanism, evolution is nothing more than philosophical ramblings. Biophysicist, Dr. Lee Spetner stated, "The neo-Darwinians would like us to believe that large evolutionary changes can result from a series of small events if there are enough of them. But if these events all lose information they can’t be the steps in the kind of evolution the neo-Darwin theory is supposed to explain, no matter how many mutations there are. Whoever thinks macroevolution can be made by mutations that lose information is like the merchant who lost a little money on every sale but thought he could make it up on volume.4
Reporting finch adaptation as evidence for evolution is not unique. Finch evolution gained momentum when the research team of Peter and Rosemary Grant went to the Galapagos Islands in 1973. While observing the wide diversity of finches, they discovered that during an ordinary drought, the average beak length of some birds slightly increased. This preliminary data was then extrapolated to conclude after a certain number of droughts; a new species of finch could be created with a longer beak5. What they did not realize at the time, was during rainy seasons the beaks did not stay the same, they returned to normal. This type of intrinsic oscillation is an eloquent illustration of natural selection via adaptation but not evolution.
The subject papers presented in Science magazine are excellent research examples demonstrating rapid adaptations within a species of bird. However, these adaptations utilize information previously existing in the genetic code of these creatures. The fact remains, they are still finches and they are still birds.
Forbidden
The bolded paragraph above answers why nobody wanted to deal with this linked article, because it exposes very concisely why adaptation has nothing to do with evolution, much less macroevolution which this pseudo science will cling to in a vain attempt to justify that which cannot be proven by any means possible in the real world.
What really offends me about this so called science is that it depends on the gullibility and ignorance of people to believe what is so absolutely unprovable. (WHICH I CAN OUTLINE FOR YOU IN CLEAR TERMS IF YOU LIKE!) And then to add insult to injury, it is you very deceived and gullible victims of this pseudo scientific lie who condescendingly and sanctimoniously talk down to we creationists as if we are morons. It's like living in bizarro world.
And how about these posts where I was told that I didn't understand the goal of evolution by two separate evolutionists. Until I posted a link to evo 101 which proved I was right. and they were wrong. All you people ever show when you gang up on me is that even you can't agree among yourselves about what your science claims to be factual.
Coragyps writes:
Where did you find that exceedingly odd "rule," Archangel? Not in the biological literature, I'll bet - more likely in some tract from Kent Hovind, it sounds like.
It's utterly false! A nematode or typanosome almost certainly has no "desire to improve" at all, or anything else we could realistically call a "desire." They're biologically/chemically "driven" to seek nutrition and make babies, I guess, but that's hardly a desire to survive.
bluescat48 writes:
That may be the outcome, but evolution has no direction. Evolution is simply descent with modification. Changes may be benificial, neutral or
harmful. In most cases the harmful don't survive to pass the trait on to offspring. Neutral modifications can become benificial if the environment changes and this modification is helpful to the survival.
Archangel writes:
How convenient, then what you're saying here is that no matter what observations may arise, you guys have it covered in your ever expanding and generalized definition of what evolution is and represents itself as. Have you no absolute laws which define your so called science? But in spite of what excuses you make in debates as you obfuscate and sidestep actual issues, here is what evolution teaches at its most basic level, and it supports me to the T.
Natural Selection - Understanding Evolution
So I'll make a deal with you, answer my queries seriously, honestly and with substantial evidence which is reliable and without snipes, insults and evasions and I will be much easier to get along with. Deal??? The problem with that is that you can't answer my questions because your evolutionary house of cards is built on a foundation of liquified sand. So our impasse will continue unabated, I fear.
Edited by Archangel, : No reason given.
Edited by Archangel, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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Meddle
Member (Idle past 1292 days)
Posts: 179
From: Scotland
Joined: 05-08-2006


Message 84 of 167 (523839)
09-12-2009 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Archangel
09-12-2009 6:31 PM


The problem for you is that the definition of the theory of evolution has not significantly changed since our understanding of genetics was incorporated into it, thus giving us the modern definition of "a change in gene frequency in a population over time". What usually happens is that creationists insist on conflating evolution like this:
quote:
A more appropriate definition for evolution is, a continuous naturalistic, mechanistic process by which all living things have arisen from a single living source which itself arose by a similar process from a non-living, inanimate world. This definition requires evolutionists to justify their claims of simplicity to complexity, life from nonlife, and common ancestry.
When we try to correct this, to inform you what science actually says about evolution, you complain that we are somehow changing the definition.
The change in gene frequency can be measured in different populations of a species or tested in the lab. We can also compare the genomes of extant species to identify relatedness and understand how a mutation to a gene influences the phenotype of an individual.
Look at that 2002 study on finches you cited in science magazine. What we see is how a single species over an extended territory can show differences in populations over such a short time, in response to selective pressures of their local environment. It's easy from this to suggest that given longer time and if gene flow was impeded that speciation could occur.
This is more than a guess, since we can look at the independent findings of other fields of science. For example we can look at geology which can identify through physics the age of the various strata and the overall age of the earth. Through geology, palaeontology can identify when different species existed, which then supports what comparative genomics tells us about when related groups shared a common ancestor.
It is all related, but whats important to remember is that each of those scientists, the physicist, geology, palaeontologist and geneticist, are focussed on their own small niche in science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Archangel, posted 09-12-2009 6:31 PM Archangel has replied

Replies to this message:
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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4211 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 85 of 167 (523848)
09-12-2009 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Archangel
09-12-2009 12:01 PM


Re: God using evolution
And btw, what you are describing is the view of neo Darwinism, not original Darwinism. All you people have learned in 130 years is how to fine tune the excuses and justifications for the inconsistencies which exist in your pseudo science.
That is what science does, fine tune. There are no absolutes in science. Science is not religion, we have no mythological dogma. As for calling evolution pseudoscience, that's your opinion. The fact is that evolution is not pseudoscience but real science. The theory of evolution is just as robust as gravity, oxidation-reduction, the periodic law, and heliocentric solar system.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Archangel, posted 09-12-2009 12:01 PM Archangel has replied

Replies to this message:
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obvious Child
Member (Idle past 4137 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 86 of 167 (523856)
09-13-2009 1:17 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Archangel
09-12-2009 9:29 PM


Just a reminder: you appear to be ignorant of rule #4 as you have appeared to have violated it several times in this thread.
Points should be supported with evidence and/or reasoned argumentation. Address rebuttals through the introduction of additional evidence or by enlarging upon the argument. Do not repeat previous points without further elaboration. Avoid bare assertions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Archangel, posted 09-12-2009 9:29 PM Archangel has replied

Replies to this message:
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Archangel
Member (Idle past 1379 days)
Posts: 134
Joined: 09-09-2009


Message 87 of 167 (523892)
09-13-2009 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by obvious Child
09-13-2009 1:17 AM


the obvious child writes:
Just a reminder: you appear to be ignorant of rule #4 as you have appeared to have violated it several times in this thread.
(4) Points should be supported with evidence and/or reasoned argumentation. Address rebuttals through the introduction of additional evidence or by enlarging upon the argument. Do not repeat previous points without further elaboration. Avoid bare assertions.
Is that right? Go on and post the linked additional evidence or reasoned arguments the evolutionists I have been debating have offered up in order to expand this debate. Go on, show me where they have responded to anything I have asked with reasoned or rational proof of anything firm or concrete. You can't, because no real evidence has been offered at all. Nothing which actually "proves" that spontaneous life appearing on earth around 3.5 billion years ago occurred at all, as is claimed; or that macroevolution is real as it applies to actual animals evolving from one type of animal to another. I still haven't seen the genetic evidence that an amphibian evolved into a specific mammal for example, or that a reptile or mammal has evolved into a specific bird. Go on child, show me the change in alleles, I await the documentation.
Why is it that you come onto this thread and contribute nothing of on topic substance to it at all, yet you feel obligated or qualified to attack the one poster who has actually offered supportive links to back up my claims and queries, and accuse me of breaking rule #4? Have you no sense of fair play or honesty in recognizing the real culprits who have offered nothing more than their opinions as they continue to just insist that their pseudo science is founded in reality at all? Are you so blind to the objective truth that you cannot see that it is YOU who has broken rule 4 with the very post I have quoted, which you wrote?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by obvious Child, posted 09-13-2009 1:17 AM obvious Child has replied

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Archangel
Member (Idle past 1379 days)
Posts: 134
Joined: 09-09-2009


Message 88 of 167 (523894)
09-13-2009 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by bluescat48
09-12-2009 11:00 PM


Re: God using evolution
bluescat writes:
That is what science does, fine tune. There are no absolutes in science. Science is not religion, we have no mythological dogma.
Really? No dogma for evolution? You don't say. You don't mind if I dispute this claim do you, because it's a no brainer to absolutely rebut what you say. Here's what I mean from a book written on the subject of evolutionary dogma.
Memory, Amnesia, and the Hippocampal System - Neal J. Cohen, Howard Eichenbaum - Google Books
As for calling evolution pseudoscience, that's your opinion. The fact is that evolution is not pseudoscience but real science. The theory of evolution is just as robust as gravity, oxidation-reduction, the periodic law, and heliocentric solar system.
You know what is interesting about your response here bluescat? Your very response to me is solid evidence of the religious type dogma of evolution and the very aspects of pseudo science which I have criticized above. By that I mean that my sources clearly show that your very defenses of evolution prove that you are relying on the exact fallacies to authority and dogmatic claims which prove my point 100%. Thank you for that by the way.
Is evolution pseudoscience?
by Mark Johansen
The Skeptic’s Dictionary contains an entry on ‘pseudoscience’ that includes ten characteristic fallacies of pseudoscientific theories.1 The list’s compiler clearly did not have evolution in mind, as the very first group the article identifies as pseudoscientific is ‘creationists’. Ironically, evolution has almost every characteristic on this list. Let’s look at how evolution exhibits the fallacies listed by these self-proclaimed skeptics, with just one example of each.
Some pseudoscientific theories are based upon an authoritative text rather than observation or empirical investigation.
In almost every debate about origins, the first argument given by the evolutionists is an appeal to authority. The National Academy of Sciences flatly asserts, ‘While the mechanisms of evolution are still under investigation, scientists universally accept that the cosmos, our planet, and life evolved and continue to evolve.’2 [our emphasis]
We are supposed to respect these scientists because science has proven so powerful. But the people who preach evolution didn’t discover gravity or pasteurization or semiconductors. They just call themselves by the same name, ‘scientist’.
Some pseudoscientific theories explain what non-believers cannot even observe.
The web site of the US Department of Energy admits that no one has observed evolution happen in nature or the laboratory, but explains, ‘As for the fact that we haven’t made evolving life in the laboratory yet, I think that you’re expecting too much of your species. Let’s say, as a first guess, that it took blind Nature a billion years to make evolving life on earth. How much faster do you want us to go? Even if you give us an advantage of a factor of a MILLION in speed, it would still take us a thousand years to catch up ’.3
So it is totally unrealistic to expect to actually observe evolution, even under artificially accelerated conditions.
Richard Dawkins, Professor of Zoology, Oxford University, said, ‘Evolution has been observed. It’s just that it has not been observed while it’s happening.’4
Some can’t be tested because they are consistent with every imaginable state of affairs in the empirical world.
The next is essentially the same:
[or] are so vague and malleable that anything relevant can be shoehorned to fit the theory.
Evolutionists are always ready with a story to explain any observed trait of a species. Why do some birds, like peacocks and birds of paradise, have beautiful and elaborate tails? Evolutionists explain, ‘If a peacock can find food and evade predators while dragging around a bigger and more conspicuous tail than his rivals do’ this demonstrates that he is particularly strong and capable, and thus makes a better mate. So evolution selects females that prefer males with the most elaborate tails.5
But the same article also says, ‘it’s hard to figure what possible advantage these eye-catching but burdensome appendages offer in the grim business of survival.’ If peacocks had small, streamlined tails, evolutionist would surely be explaining that an efficient tail gives an advantage in the struggle for survival (in escaping from predators, for example).
Evolution is just as good at ‘predicting’ things that never happened as it is at predicting things that actually did happen. A theory that can explain anything, predicts nothing and proves nothing.
Some theories have been empirically tested and rather than being confirmed they seem either to have been falsified or to require numerous ad hoc hypotheses to sustain them.
Evolutionists are forced to admit that the fossil evidence for their theory is slim to non-existent. For example, almost all major groups of creatures appear in the fossil record with no evolutionary past. ‘Something quite bizarre happened at the end of the Precambrian Era. Rocks from that time show evidence of an astounding variety of multicelled and hard-shelled life forms that seemingly appeared all at once. Scientists have long pondered the causes of this sudden appearance of new life forms, known as the Cambrian explosion.’6
So the evolutionists offer ad hoc hypotheses to explain the lack of evidence. One popular theory is ‘punctuated equilibrium’, which says that sometimes evolution happens so fast that there are too few ‘intermediate’ generations for any to have much chance of being fossilized.
We cannot see evolution happening today because it goes so slowly, and we cannot see evidence of it in the past because it happened too quickly!
Some pseudoscientific theories rely on ancient myths and legends
Okay, one that doesn’t particularly describe evolution, although evolutionary notions can be traced back to ancient pagan Greek philosophers such as Empedocles (c. 490—430 BC).7
Some pseudoscientific theories are supported mainly by selective use of anecdotes, intuition, and examples of confirming instances.
Evolutionists try to find animals that fit into their ‘evolutionary tree’. In the classic ‘horse story’, they arrange a group of animals with similar body shapes in order by size and say it shows the evolution of the horse. But is this actual ancestry or just a contrived arrangement? Except for the supposed ‘first horse’, which it probably isn’t, far from being an example of evolution, the fossils show the wide variation within a created kind. As the biologist Heribert-Nilsson said, ‘The family tree of the horse is beautiful and continuous only in the textbooks’.8
Most of the creatures that would have had to exist if evolution were true have never been found, and some creatures have been found that don’t fit in the evolutionary tree at all, like the platypus. But evolutionists seize on a few creatures that sort of look like they might be halfway between a badger and a horse, or between a reptile and a bird. These rare apparent fits ‘prove’ evolution as much as occasional good guesses by a psychic ‘prove’ that he can read your mind.
Some pseudoscientific theories confuse metaphysical claims with empirical claims.
Some evolutionists insist that evolution has no metaphysical implications. ‘Evolution does not have moral consequences, and does not make cosmic purpose impossible.’9
But others make dogmatic metaphysical applications. The American Academy for the Advancement of Science website includes a whole section on ‘Science, Ethics, and Religion’, with statements like, ‘Evolution is the creation myth of our age. By telling us our origins it shapes our views of what we are. In calling it a myth I am not saying that it is a false story. I mean that it has great symbolic power, which is independent of its truth. Is the word religion appropriate to it? This depends on the sense in which we understand that very elastic word. I have chosen it deliberately.’10
Richard Dawkins said that ‘Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist’.11
Some pseudoscientific theories contradict known scientific laws and use ad hoc hypotheses to explain their belief.
A pro-evolution web site states, ‘Until the 19th century, it was commonly believed that life frequently arose from non-life under certain circumstances, a process known as spontaneous generation. This belief was due to the common observation that maggots or mould appeared to arise spontaneously when organic matter was left exposed. It was later discovered that under all these circumstances commonly observed, life only arises from life. No life has ever been observed to arise from dead matter.’12
But evolutionists dismiss the fact that their theory requires the violation of this well-established law of science. ‘Did [Pasteur] prove that no life can ever come from non-living things? No, he didn’t, and this is because you cannot disprove something like that experimentally ’.13
The fact that all the experimental evidence of the past 200 years contradicts their theory is irrelevant, because they speculate that it’s possible that there is some experiment that no one has yet tried where it might work.
Pseudoscientists claim to base their theories on empirical evidence, and they may even use some scientific methods, though often their understanding of a controlled experiment is inadequate.
Evolutionists claim that their theory is science, but the National Center for Science Education, which is an anti-creationist lobbying group, admits that there’s a problem: ‘The failure of many students to understand and accept the fact of evolution is often a consequence of the nave views they hold of the nature of science . According to this nave view, the key to the unique success of science at producing true knowledge is The Scientific Method, which, on the standard account, involves formulating hypotheses, making predictions, and then going into the laboratory to perform the crucial experiment. In contrast, the work of many evolutionary biologists involves the reconstruction of the past. The methods they use do not conform to the standard view of The Scientific Method.’14
So if you can’t actually prove your theory using the scientific method, which actually uses controlled experiment, as distinct from plausible story telling, simply declare that only ‘nave’ people think that the scientific method has anything to do with ‘science’.
Thus, of the ten characteristics of pseudoscience listed in the Skeptic’s Dictionary, evolution meets nine. Few other pseudosciencesastrology, astral projection, alien abduction, crystal power, or whateverwould meet so many.
Is evolution pseudoscience? - creation.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by bluescat48, posted 09-12-2009 11:00 PM bluescat48 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Tanndarr, posted 09-13-2009 9:29 AM Archangel has not replied
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Archangel
Member (Idle past 1379 days)
Posts: 134
Joined: 09-09-2009


Message 89 of 167 (523900)
09-13-2009 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Meddle
09-12-2009 10:12 PM


Malcom writes:
The problem for you is that the definition of the theory of evolution has not significantly changed since our understanding of genetics was incorporated into it, thus giving us the modern definition of "a change in gene frequency in a population over time". What usually happens is that creationists insist on conflating evolution like this:
Sure it has. The definition of evolution changes on this very forum and thread depending on who you talk to. Two evolutionists attempted to dispute my definition of evolutions goal until I posted a link to evo 101 which clearly proved my definition correct and that they didn't understand the most basic principles or dogma their pseudo science/religion teaches.
The problem is that you claim macroevolution is a fact, and that evolution means that real animals have evolved from one type to another such as a fish evolving into a mammal. You insist this had to have occurred in reality since it is taught that all life originally started in the SEA and moved out from there. But you can't show any real and undeniable genetic evidence of this using allele changes in anyway. Yet you boldly say thus giving us the modern definition of "a change in gene frequency in a population over time". As if gene frequencies in one animal type is evidence that it evolved from another animal type. Here's a primer on the different types of animals Rules for Smart Online Gambling - Saskatchewan Casino Dealer School Can you show a transitional consistency which exists between these types and classifications of animals? Of course you can't prove anything you claim in absolute terms genetically, but that doesn't stop evolution from deluding itself as it lies to you regarding what it can actually prove, compared to the claims it makes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Meddle, posted 09-12-2009 10:12 PM Meddle has not replied

  
Tanndarr
Member (Idle past 5204 days)
Posts: 68
Joined: 02-14-2008


Message 90 of 167 (523902)
09-13-2009 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Archangel
09-12-2009 9:29 PM


Your sources aren't working
I tried following the link to your creationists.org site, the article you linked to returns a 404 not found and the whole site merely gives an under construction message. Perhaps it's just adapting, but until it finishes could you please provide a valid reference for us?
In the meantime you might want to consider that the ability of science to account for new evidence by changing is exactly why science is not a religion. Religions are revealed, science is discovered. We didn't pray a man onto the moon and Jesus did not personally deliver smallpox vaccine.
You're not only demanding that science conforms to your worldview, you're demanding God conform to your worldview as well. Your position is based on the interpretation of a translation of a really old book. If you believe in God you are positively turning your back to him by studying a book written by man instead of the creation written by God.
Finally, you are equivocating when you try to differentiate adaptation and evolution. Change is change and that's really all that the theory of evolution says is happening. Once you accept a small change can happen then you have to accept that another can happen and so on...evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Archangel, posted 09-12-2009 9:29 PM Archangel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Archangel, posted 09-13-2009 4:48 PM Tanndarr has replied

  
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