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Author Topic:   Are we prisoners of sin
SammyJean
Member (Idle past 4074 days)
Posts: 87
From: Fremont, CA, USA
Joined: 03-28-2009


Message 316 of 454 (505683)
04-15-2009 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 309 by Peg
04-15-2009 5:41 AM


Re: woodsy
Peg writes:
you find one that teaches from the bible and not doctrines of men.
Don't most of the different Christian denominations teach only from the bible, just different interpretations?

"Few are those who see with their own eyes and feel with their own hearts." -Albert Einstein

This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by Peg, posted 04-15-2009 5:41 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 320 by Peg, posted 04-16-2009 5:31 AM SammyJean has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 317 of 454 (505684)
04-15-2009 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 309 by Peg
04-15-2009 5:41 AM


Doctrine of Men
quote:
you find one that teaches from the bible and not doctrines of men.
And yet what you've been presenting are doctrines of men.
Paul is a man, not God.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by Peg, posted 04-15-2009 5:41 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 321 by Peg, posted 04-16-2009 5:36 AM purpledawn has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 318 of 454 (505741)
04-16-2009 5:21 AM
Reply to: Message 313 by purpledawn
04-15-2009 9:39 AM


Re: Pauline Soteriology
If you have the bible and Pauls own writings about the issue of the Gentiles and the law, why dont you use it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 313 by purpledawn, posted 04-15-2009 9:39 AM purpledawn has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 319 of 454 (505742)
04-16-2009 5:24 AM
Reply to: Message 314 by bluescat48
04-15-2009 9:49 AM


Re: woodsy
bluescat48 writes:
And which one would that be?
The one that teaches it and practices it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by bluescat48, posted 04-15-2009 9:49 AM bluescat48 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 352 by bluescat48, posted 04-20-2009 8:20 PM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 320 of 454 (505743)
04-16-2009 5:31 AM
Reply to: Message 316 by SammyJean
04-15-2009 10:28 AM


Re: woodsy
SammyJean writes:
Don't most of the different Christian denominations teach only from the bible, just different interpretations?
yes, they all make that claim. But surely you'd have to ask why there are so many conflicting interpretations of the Bible? Its understandable why most people conclude that the Bible is unclear and contradictory.
God’s word is not contradictory. Its the interpretations and explanations that are contradictory.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by SammyJean, posted 04-15-2009 10:28 AM SammyJean has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 321 of 454 (505744)
04-16-2009 5:36 AM
Reply to: Message 317 by purpledawn
04-15-2009 11:23 AM


Re: Doctrine of Men
purpledawn writes:
And yet what you've been presenting are doctrines of men.
Paul is a man, not God.
You dont believe that the Apostles were inspired, yet God proved that he was with them by giving them powerful works. Moses was just a man too, but God used him to lead the nation...he used the Apostles to establish christianity. Paul had Gods backing just as Moses did.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by purpledawn, posted 04-15-2009 11:23 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 322 by purpledawn, posted 04-16-2009 6:02 AM Peg has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 322 of 454 (505746)
04-16-2009 6:02 AM
Reply to: Message 321 by Peg
04-16-2009 5:36 AM


Re: Doctrine of Men
quote:
If you have the bible and Pauls own writings about the issue of the Gentiles and the law, why dont you use it?
I have many Bibles and a book entitled "The Letter Writer, Paul's Background and Torah Perspective" by Tim Hegg; but you don't seem to want to discuss what Paul wrote in relation to what was written in the OT.
quote:
You dont believe that the Apostles were inspired, yet God proved that he was with them by giving them powerful works. Moses was just a man too, but God used him to lead the nation...he used the Apostles to establish christianity. Paul had Gods backing just as Moses did.
You know better than that. I feel that all writing is inspired. I have no doubt that Paul was inspired by the state of the world around him, but he wasn't speaking for God. Moses supposedly spoke to God, you know burning bush, on the mountain, in the tent. Paul did not claim to pass on information from God as Moses or the prophets did. Paul's writings do not show that he had God's "backing" just like Moses. If Paul had God's backing, then God changed his mind on how he wanted things done and according to Cedre, God never changes.
Christianity today developed through the Gentiles from Paul's writings. You've been shown the contradictions between Paul and the OT. Address them.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 321 by Peg, posted 04-16-2009 5:36 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 323 by Peg, posted 04-16-2009 6:34 AM purpledawn has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 323 of 454 (505749)
04-16-2009 6:34 AM
Reply to: Message 322 by purpledawn
04-16-2009 6:02 AM


Re: Doctrine of Men
purpledawn writes:
If Paul had God's backing, then God changed his mind on how he wanted things done and according to Cedre, God never changes.
Christianity today developed through the Gentiles from Paul's writings. You've been shown the contradictions between Paul and the OT. Address them.
How had God changed his mind?
Christianity did not develop thru gentiles. The Apostles of Jesus and Jesus himself were Jews. So christianity was developed thru Jews because they did the inviting. Gentiles did not invite jews to christianity.
Perhaps you can repeat the 'contradictions' .

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by purpledawn, posted 04-16-2009 6:02 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 324 by purpledawn, posted 04-16-2009 7:34 AM Peg has replied
 Message 325 by Perdition, posted 04-16-2009 3:55 PM Peg has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 324 of 454 (505753)
04-16-2009 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 323 by Peg
04-16-2009 6:34 AM


Re: Doctrine of Men
quote:
How had God changed his mind?
Christianity did not develop thru gentiles. The Apostles of Jesus and Jesus himself were Jews. So christianity was developed thru Jews because they did the inviting. Gentiles did not invite jews to christianity.
Perhaps you can repeat the 'contradictions'.
How rude! You want me to go to the work of repeating myself which I've already done several times with you and cedre. It is more responsible and considerate if you go back and read what I've written.
Message 21, Message 28, Message 40, Message 89, Message 93, Message 98, Message 106, Message 107, Message 113, Message 127, Message 128, Message 148, Message 159, Message 165, Message 171, Message 178, Message 181, Message 186, Message 196, Message 204, Message 209, Message 214, Message 231, Message 246, Message 255, Message 288, Message 311, Message 313
Edited by purpledawn, : Added comma

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by Peg, posted 04-16-2009 6:34 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 327 by Peg, posted 04-17-2009 5:52 AM purpledawn has not replied

Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 325 of 454 (505774)
04-16-2009 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 323 by Peg
04-16-2009 6:34 AM


Re: Doctrine of Men
The Apostles of Jesus and Jesus himself were Jews.
Yes, and they were speaking to a Jewish audience, not the Gentiles. It was Paul who started going to the Gentiles and trying to convert them to his brand of Christianity. The Apostles, especially Peter and James were against Paul and his teachings, leading to the showdown between them in Jerusalem shown in Galations 2 and Acts 15.
Paul essentially bribed them with the money he had collected from the Gentiles, and they gave in to his demands to not make the Gentile converts follow the Jewish law in regards to circumcision, while the Apostles thought they should.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by Peg, posted 04-16-2009 6:34 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by Peg, posted 04-17-2009 4:52 AM Perdition has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 326 of 454 (505789)
04-17-2009 4:52 AM
Reply to: Message 325 by Perdition
04-16-2009 3:55 PM


Re: Doctrine of Men
Perdition writes:
The Apostles, especially Peter and James were against Paul and his teachings, leading to the showdown between them in Jerusalem shown in Galations 2 and Acts 15.
They were not against pauls teachings. It was the other Apostles, James, Cephus and John who had sent Paul to preach to the Gentiles. So they certainly were not against it.
And if you read Acts 15:1 " And certain men came down from Jude′a and began to teach the brothers: "Unless YOU get circumcised according to the custom of Moses, YOU cannot be saved." 2But when there had occurred no little dissension and disputing by Paul and Bar′nabas with them, they arranged for Paul and Bar′nabas and some others of them to go up to the apostles and older men in Jerusalem regarding this dispute"
these men were debating the point with Paul and Barnabas, the men debating were not the Apostles.
Perdition writes:
Paul essentially bribed them with the money he had collected from the Gentiles, and they gave in to his demands to not make the Gentile converts follow the Jewish law in regards to circumcision, while the Apostles thought they should.
goodness me, where where does that information come from???
This is just not the case at all. Acts 15 shows us the outcome of the issue about the mosaic law...as those men/brothers were teaching that the Gentiles had to practice the Law of Moses and be circumcised. After their dispute about it, they recieved a letter from the Apostles in Jerusalem...
quote:
22Then the apostles and the older men together with the whole congregation favored sending chosen men from among them to Antioch along with Paul and Bar′nabas, namely, Judas who was called Bar′sabbas and Silas, leading men among the brothers; 23and by their hand they wrote:
"The apostles and the older men, brothers, to those brothers in Antioch and Syria and Cili′cia who are from the nations: Greetings! 24Since we have heard that some from among us have caused YOU trouble with speeches, trying to subvert YOUR souls, although we did not give them any instructions, 25we have come to a unanimous accord... 28For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to YOU, except these necessary things, 29to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication. If YOU carefully keep yourselves from these things, YOU will prosper. Good health to YOU!"
Paul also showed in Gal 2 that if they (jews) still needed the Mosiac Law, then the death of the Christ was in vain.
quote:
19As for me, through law I died toward law, that I might become alive toward God. 20I am impaled along with Christ. It is no longer I that live, but it is Christ that is living in union with me. Indeed, the life that I now live in flesh I live by the faith that is toward the Son of God, who loved me and handed himself over for me. 21I do not shove aside the undeserved kindness of God; for if righteousness is through law, Christ actually died for nothing.
and as you know, Paul was not a Gentile, he was a Jew... a Jew who no longer believed the Mosaic law was the way to salvation.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by Perdition, posted 04-16-2009 3:55 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 328 by Perdition, posted 04-17-2009 11:26 AM Peg has replied
 Message 329 by purpledawn, posted 04-17-2009 11:40 AM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 327 of 454 (505790)
04-17-2009 5:52 AM
Reply to: Message 324 by purpledawn
04-16-2009 7:34 AM


Re: Doctrine of Men
thanks purpledawn for the msg numbers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by purpledawn, posted 04-16-2009 7:34 AM purpledawn has not replied

Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 328 of 454 (505796)
04-17-2009 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 326 by Peg
04-17-2009 4:52 AM


Re: Doctrine of Men
Hi Peg,
In college, I took a philosophy of religion class. We looked at a number of different religions, but focused on Christianity and Buddhism. We read a number of books and looked at passages from the Bible, and it became quite clear to us there was a feud between Paul and Peter/James. Reading between the lines, and recognizing that whatever else these men may have been, they were human, we were able to piece together a pretty convincing case for what I wrote above. Unfortunately, I'll need to dig through my old college stuff to see if I can come up with what we wrote.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by Peg, posted 04-17-2009 4:52 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 330 by Peg, posted 04-17-2009 10:12 PM Perdition has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 329 of 454 (505797)
04-17-2009 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 326 by Peg
04-17-2009 4:52 AM


Mosaic Law
quote:
and as you know, Paul was not a Gentile, he was a Jew... a Jew who no longer believed the Mosaic law was the way to salvation.
So the question is, was the Mosaic Law ever the way to salvation per God in the OT anymore than our own legal system today?
You would have to define salvation from what, but I imagine your decription of salvation is just as wishy washy as your list of Christian Laws.
Even though Paul was a Jew he preached his gospel to the Gentiles. The Gentiles never were under the Mosaic Law so why does it matter whether Paul no longer believed the Mosaic Law was the way to salvation? My guess is he took more issue with the additions, which we don't have in the Bible. Not being able to eat at the same table as someone who is eating meat that was presented to idols, etc. Things that made it difficult for the Jews to "mingle." As I've pointed out before, according to Jewish history within Judaism people wanted to reform the religion so that they could "mingle". Not be so different.
Paul was a reformer. Was Jesus?

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by Peg, posted 04-17-2009 4:52 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 331 by Peg, posted 04-17-2009 11:00 PM purpledawn has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 330 of 454 (505824)
04-17-2009 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 328 by Perdition
04-17-2009 11:26 AM


Re: Doctrine of Men
Perdition writes:
We read a number of books and looked at passages from the Bible, and it became quite clear to us there was a feud between Paul and Peter/James. Reading between the lines, and recognizing that whatever else these men may have been, they were human, we were able to piece together a pretty convincing case for what I wrote above.
Im not denying that there was a dispute, it just wasnt over Pauls teachings... it was over Peter being afraid to associate with the Gentile christians whilst in the company of the Jewish christians.
(keep in mind that the culture of the Jews was one that did not even allow walking on the same side of the road as a gentile, so its not unlikely that the new Jewish converts had trouble getting over that deeply ingrained culture)
So Paul told Peter to stop putting on such a 'pretense' and explained that righteousness was thru Christ and not works of the Mosaic Law, as it was previously.

This message is a reply to:
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