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Author Topic:   Non-scientific evidence
Jzyehoshua
Member (Idle past 597 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 06-10-2010


Message 91 of 98 (564575)
06-11-2010 1:38 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Dr Adequate
06-11-2010 1:21 AM


Re: No McDowell Citations
quote:

Your sources make it clear that the volcano was not underwater and that this happened a quarter of a billion years before the supposed flood.

Both clearly state it was 'marine life'.

quote:

Why?

The Aramaic translated 'fountains of the great deep broken up' in Genesis 7:11 has following definitions according to Strong's Greek Dictionary (these can be seen readily by downloading a demo of PowerBible which has an interlinear tool showing the original Greek/Hebrew):

quote:

* Fountains: Nyem ma`yan, mah-yawn' or ma ynow (Psa. 114:8) {mah-yen-o'}; or (feminine) ma yanah {mah-yaw-naw'}; from 5869 (as a denominative in the sense of a spring); a fountain (also collectively), figuratively, a source (of satisfaction):--fountain, spring, well.
* Great: rab, rab by contracted from 7231; abundant (in quantity, size, age, number, rank, quality):--(in) abound(-undance, -ant, -antly), captain, elder, enough, exceedingly, full, great(-ly, man, one), increase, long (enough, (time)), (do, have) many(-ifold, things, a time), ((ship-))master, mighty, more, (too, very) much, multiply(-tude), officer, often(-times), plenteous, populous, prince, process (of time), suffice(-lent).
* Deep: Mwht t@howm, teh-home' thom {teh-home'}; (usually feminine) from 1949; an abyss (as a surging mass of water), especially the deep (the main sea or the subterranean water-supply):--deep (place), depth.
* Broken Up: eqb baqa`, baw-kah' a primitive root; to cleave; generally, to rend, break, rip or open:--make a breach, break forth (into, out, in pieces, through, up), be ready to burst, cleave (asunder), cut out, divide, hatch, rend (asunder), rip up, tear, win.

So basically you're talking about big fountains surging out of the subterranean. It's even possible to search the Bible for each root Hebrew word individually to see how it's used in each sentence in the Bible, a tactic I've used on occasion when really confused about meaning.

While I suppose it could mean just a rip in the ocean floor, I think it logical that big fountains erupting brings to mind volcanoes. It could go either way though, but it's a reasonable alternative.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-11-2010 1:21 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-11-2010 1:48 AM Jzyehoshua has responded
 Message 97 by ICANT, posted 06-11-2010 2:35 AM Jzyehoshua has not yet responded

  
Jzyehoshua
Member (Idle past 597 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 06-10-2010


Message 92 of 98 (564576)
06-11-2010 1:48 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Coyote
06-11-2010 1:35 AM


Re: Scientific evidence
The problem is, this is differing about the age of the earth, not probability of a flood. And archeology does acknowledge a flood, correct? You would just say it's around several million years ago I believe (another news discovery I read about somewhere - need to dig it up).

While I don't think the earth 6000 years old, neither do I consider life billions of years old either. We are relying on the assumption that carbon 14 aged at the same rate, again off of Lyell's concept of Uniformitarianism and "the present is the key to the past", which originally rejected catastrophism - even though even Evolutionists now believe world-changing catastrophes altered the global environment. Furthermore, why could the speed with which carbon 14 decays have been affected by such things as a global flood, meteor shower-induced dust storms blotting out the sun, or an ice age(s)? One would think such atmosphere-affecting catastrophes might affect carbon decay rates and possibly tree ring growth levels, yet we are assuming they stayed the same. Why?

I did google channeled scablands. I get the idea. It would leave behind structures like the Grand Canyon, right? Or mass fossilization? Some of this McDowell addressed, such as the Hamilton Sandstone at Mount Marion, NY, which preserved casts of over 400 starfish, some of which died hovering over clams they were in the act of devouring. (p. 206, 'Reasons Skeptics Should Consider Christianity').

Edited by Jzyehoshua, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Coyote, posted 06-11-2010 1:35 AM Coyote has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-11-2010 1:52 AM Jzyehoshua has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 12604
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 93 of 98 (564577)
06-11-2010 1:48 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Jzyehoshua
06-11-2010 1:38 AM


Re: No McDowell Citations
Both clearly state it was 'marine life'.

And neither of them clearly state that it was underwater; and Bloomberg says that it wasn't.

The Aramaic translated 'fountains of the great deep broken up' in Genesis 7:11 has following definitions according to Strong's Greek Dictionary ...

None of which are "an underwater volcano erupting".

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Jzyehoshua, posted 06-11-2010 1:38 AM Jzyehoshua has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Jzyehoshua, posted 06-11-2010 2:14 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 12604
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 94 of 98 (564578)
06-11-2010 1:52 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Jzyehoshua
06-11-2010 1:48 AM


Re: Scientific evidence
The problem is, this is differing about the age of the earth, not probability of a flood. And archeology does acknowledge a flood, correct?

Floods have happened, yes. But no global flood such as we we find in creationist fantasy.

While I don't think the earth 6000 years old, neither do I consider life billions of years old either. We are relying on the assumption that carbon 14 aged at the same rate.

No.

... again off of Lyell's concept of Uniformitarianism and "the present is the key to the past", which originally rejected catastrophism - even though even Evolutionists now believe world-changing catastrophes altered the global environment.

Your efforts to rewrite the history of geology are as plausible as your other attempts to rewrite history.

Furthermore, why could the speed with which carbon 14 decays have been affected by such things as a global flood, meteor shower-induced dust storms blotting out the sun, or an ice age(s)? One would think such atmosphere-affecting catastrophes might affect carbon decay rates and possibly tree ring growth levels, yet we are assuming they stayed the same. Why?

Because creationist wishful thinking is not a substitute for actual evidence.

I did google channeled scablands. I get the idea.

No.

It would leave behind structures like the Grand Canyon, right? Or mass fossilization?

No.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Jzyehoshua, posted 06-11-2010 1:48 AM Jzyehoshua has not yet responded

Jzyehoshua
Member (Idle past 597 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 06-10-2010


Message 95 of 98 (564580)
06-11-2010 2:14 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Dr Adequate
06-11-2010 1:48 AM


Re: No McDowell Citations
quote:
"And neither of them clearly state that it was underwater; and Bloomberg says that it wasn't."

Please state where in the article you've decided the Bloomberg article says it wasn't underwater. These articles by ScienceDaily and Discover Magazine specifically state the eruptions occurred in a 'shallow sea'. Here's another by National Geographic.

I believe it's referenced on Wikipedia as the 'Permian-Triassic extinction event', in which case they have another 100 sources related to this. In the Volcanism section there, it also mentions other news about the flood basalt events (has also been in the news lately) and below that, drops in the C12/C13 levels due to a massive release of methane documented. Interestingly, I haven't seen mention of C14 yet, which makes me wonder if they're trying to avoid examining that particular minefield. Oh well.

Edited by Jzyehoshua, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-11-2010 1:48 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-11-2010 2:32 AM Jzyehoshua has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 12604
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 96 of 98 (564582)
06-11-2010 2:32 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Jzyehoshua
06-11-2010 2:14 AM


Re: No McDowell Citations
Please state where in the article you've decided the Bloomberg article says it wasn't underwater.

Bloomberg says: "The eruptionís lava flows occurred near shallow seas. The volcanic emission reacted violently as it contacted the sea water."

The implication seems to be that the volcano itself was on land and its lava flowed into shallow seas.

Interestingly, I haven't seen mention of C14 yet, which makes me wonder if they're trying to avoid examining that particular minefield.

Ah, paranoia.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Jzyehoshua, posted 06-11-2010 2:14 AM Jzyehoshua has not yet responded

ICANT
Member
Posts: 5182
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 97 of 98 (564583)
06-11-2010 2:35 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Jzyehoshua
06-11-2010 1:38 AM


Re: No McDowell Citations
Hi Jzyehoshua,

Welcome to EvC.

Jzyehoshua writes:

So basically you're talking about big fountains surging out of the subterranean.

There are many of those fountains present today in the seas.

You can find a little information Here

There is enough water in the mantel to fill our seas 7 times.

Jzyehoshua writes:

While I suppose it could mean just a rip in the ocean floor,

There are vents in the ocean floor that spew out hot water.

There is a fault line in a lake that spews hot water.

There are several land locked hot springs.

There is no shortage of water to cover the earth especially if it looked like my Avatar with the land 1' above sea level. We do not know the land sea level at the time of the flood. We do know according to the Bible the land mass was in one place.

But there are a lot of fellows here that keep telling me it could not be as my Avatar some 4300 years ago. They say that was 500 million years ago. Some have a weird idea of what the flood would have been like. They been listening to, too many YEC'S.

But I mainly wanted to point out there are many fountains of the deep in operation today.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Jzyehoshua, posted 06-11-2010 1:38 AM Jzyehoshua has not yet responded

  
Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3553
Joined: 09-26-2002
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 98 of 98 (564591)
06-11-2010 3:27 AM


Terminal topic drift - Closing soon
1) The topic, as presented in message 1, may well be unfeasible.

2) Most anything can be at least on the fringe of the topic of what is and isn't scientific evidence.

That said, mostly what is happening should be covered in more specific forums and topics. Please find more appropriate topics or propose new topics as you see fit.

Probably closing this one down somewhere in the next hour or so.

Adminnemooseus


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