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Author Topic:   Creation
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


(1)
Message 1366 of 1482 (845093)
12-12-2018 3:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1365 by ICANT
12-12-2018 2:13 AM


Re: Creation
Because the best explanations work well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1365 by ICANT, posted 12-12-2018 2:13 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1371 by ICANT, posted 12-12-2018 9:38 PM Pressie has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1367 of 1482 (845156)
12-12-2018 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1364 by ICANT
12-12-2018 1:28 AM


Re: Creation
ICANT writes:
If science is not a search for the truth then what is it?
"Search for the truth" is too broad.
1. A "search" can use any means, such as prayer, meditation, etc. Science uses a specific method.
2. A "search" often implies a process that ends when the destination is reached. Science is an ongoing process with no ultimate destination.
3. "The truth" can be seen as an absolute. What science finds can always be improved/amended.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1364 by ICANT, posted 12-12-2018 1:28 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1369 by Phat, posted 12-12-2018 6:09 PM ringo has replied
 Message 1370 by ICANT, posted 12-12-2018 9:28 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1368 of 1482 (845166)
12-12-2018 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1360 by Pressie
12-11-2018 7:08 AM


Re: Creation
Pressie and these guys are rather flippant towards you! Granted you don't get much respect here. I think that what he means, however, is that science is a tool used to determine certain truths relative to known scientific principles.
I don't think that they imply that science can give us an ultimate truth as to where we came from nor where we are headed as a species in the vast universe. They will attempt to use science to determine how the universe originated. It seems that they are unimpressed with believing that the Bible has answers for everything.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1360 by Pressie, posted 12-11-2018 7:08 AM Pressie has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 1369 of 1482 (845167)
12-12-2018 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1367 by ringo
12-12-2018 3:53 PM


Re: Creation
ringo writes:
1. A "search" can use any means, such as prayer, meditation, etc. Science uses a specific method.
2. A "search" often implies a process that ends when the destination is reached. Science is an ongoing process with no ultimate destination.
3. "The truth" can be seen as an absolute. What science finds can always be improved/amended.
One could argue that our personal belief could also be improved/amended. Even if I believed something for fifty years does not mean that I cannot be taught something new. Perhaps at one time, I thought God was fiction. Perhaps tomorrow I may find out diffferent. Who knows?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1367 by ringo, posted 12-12-2018 3:53 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1372 by ringo, posted 12-13-2018 10:37 AM Phat has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 1370 of 1482 (845176)
12-12-2018 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1367 by ringo
12-12-2018 3:53 PM


Re: Creation
Hi ringo
ringo writes:
"Search for the truth" is too broad.
Why is a search for the truth too broad?
I thought truth was all that really mattered. Anything else is only part truth or a lie. But if it is not the truth it is false regardless of how much truth is scattered in it.
ringo writes:
3. "The truth" can be seen as an absolute. What science finds can always be improved/amended.
Truth is an absolute.
Science is supposed to be a system of study of an organized body of knowledge on a particular subject conducted to find the truth of that particular subject.
It is a scientific fact that the universe exists. That is an absolute truth.
How that universe came about existing is a bunch of disorganized and unknown knowledge. In which there are many discrepancies of what is true and what is false. However this knowledge gets arranged can be changes just as fast as the wind changes directions.
But the fact the universe exists can not be changed.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1367 by ringo, posted 12-12-2018 3:53 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1373 by ringo, posted 12-13-2018 10:46 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 1371 of 1482 (845177)
12-12-2018 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1366 by Pressie
12-12-2018 3:51 AM


Re: Creation
Hi Pressie
Pressie writes:
Because the best explanations work well.
Before redshift was discovered everyone believed the universe had existed eternally. Because it was the best explanation for the observations. It is still the best explanation for many of the observations the BBT is in disagreement with.
Yet many believe the BBT is the best explanation today.
The best explanation can be totally wrong. Or partially wrong.
True facts is never wrong they are 100% correct all the time.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1366 by Pressie, posted 12-12-2018 3:51 AM Pressie has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1372 of 1482 (845204)
12-13-2018 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1369 by Phat
12-12-2018 6:09 PM


Re: Creation
Phat writes:
One could argue that our personal belief could also be improved/amended.
If the amendment is based on fact, the belief is no longer a belief. If it is not based on fact, it's just another belief; one is as good as another.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1369 by Phat, posted 12-12-2018 6:09 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1373 of 1482 (845207)
12-13-2018 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1370 by ICANT
12-12-2018 9:28 PM


Re: Creation
ICANT writes:
Why is a search for the truth too broad?
I explained it. Read my post.
ICANT writes:
I thought truth was all that really mattered.
In science, truth is not the goal. If something is "true" - i.e. if it is supported by evidence - it can be used for further study. For example, it is true that radioactive decay rates do not change; that truth can be used as an "assumption" to accurately measure ages.
ICANT writes:
But if it is not the truth it is false regardless of how much truth is scattered in it.
No. That is not how science looks at truth at all. You can have a few untruths here and there without the whole edifice falling down - just like you can take a couple of studs out of a wall to put in a door without the whole house coming down.
ICANT writes:
Truth is an absolute.
No it isn't.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1370 by ICANT, posted 12-12-2018 9:28 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1374 by Phat, posted 12-13-2018 4:15 PM ringo has replied
 Message 1375 by ICANT, posted 12-13-2018 5:38 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1374 of 1482 (845240)
12-13-2018 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1373 by ringo
12-13-2018 10:46 AM


Re: Creation
ringo writes:
In science, truth is not the goal. If something is "true" - i.e. if it is supported by evidence - it can be used for further study. For example, it is true that radioactive decay rates do not change; that truth can be used as an "assumption" to accurately measure ages.
So are you saying that the goal is simply further study? How is that different than attempting to find the truth?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1373 by ringo, posted 12-13-2018 10:46 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1376 by ringo, posted 12-14-2018 10:35 AM Phat has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 1375 of 1482 (845248)
12-13-2018 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1373 by ringo
12-13-2018 10:46 AM


Re: Creation
Hi ringo
ringo writes:
I explained it. Read my post.
In Message 1367 you said:
quote:
1. A "search" can use any means, such as prayer, meditation, etc. Science uses a specific method.
2. A "search" often implies a process that ends when the destination is reached. Science is an ongoing process with no ultimate destination.
3. "The truth" can be seen as an absolute. What science finds can always be improved/amended.
#1 What difference does the method make? You believe that truth can not be found in prayer and meditation so anything found would be untrue. So what?
#2 A search for the truth ends when the truth is reached.
From what I gather science never finds the truth according to you.
ringo writes:
In science, truth is not the goal. If something is "true" - i.e. if it is supported by evidence
Is something is true it is a fact, and facts don't change.
ringo writes:
that truth can be used as an "assumption"
That truth is a fact that can not be changed it is not an assumption.
Facts in science can not change only the assumptions that scientist make can be changed.
ringo writes:
For example, it is true that radioactive decay rates do not change; that truth can be used as an "assumption" to accurately measure ages.
I think you are making an assumption that radioactive decay rates do not change.
They do change with the rotation of the sun.
ringo writes:
No. That is not how science looks at truth at all. You can have a few untruths here and there without the whole edifice falling down
How many parts of the Big Bang Theory has to be wrong before scientist will agree it is not the best explanation for the observations?
cavediver, Son Goku, and Sir Roger Penrose already agree we need a new theory.
ringo writes:
ICANT writes:
Truth is an absolute.
No it isn't.
From Message 1367
3. "The truth" can be seen as an absolute.
Either truth is absolute or it is not it can not be both.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1373 by ringo, posted 12-13-2018 10:46 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1377 by ringo, posted 12-14-2018 10:54 AM ICANT has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1376 of 1482 (845316)
12-14-2018 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1374 by Phat
12-13-2018 4:15 PM


Re: Creation
Phat writes:
So are you saying that the goal is simply further study? How is that different than attempting to find the truth?
There is no such thing as "the truth". Religion thinks there is - and thousands of different sects all think that they have found it, so they stop looking. That's the opposite of science.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1374 by Phat, posted 12-13-2018 4:15 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 1377 of 1482 (845322)
12-14-2018 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1375 by ICANT
12-13-2018 5:38 PM


Re: Creation
ICANT writes:
You believe that truth can not be found in prayer and meditation so anything found would be untrue.
No. Anything found through prayer and meditation is unreliable unless it can be verified objectively. We know that because "truths" found through prayer and meditation vary widely among different groups of believers.
ICANT writes:
#2 A search for the truth ends when the truth is reached.
How can you know when "the truth" has been reached?
ICANT writes:
Is something is true it is a fact, and facts don't change.
Our understanding of facts can change. At one time, Newtonian physics was considered to be "the truth" but now we know it isn't the whole truth. It would be foolish to pretend that what we know about physics today is the whole truth.
ICANT writes:
That truth is a fact that can not be changed it is not an assumption.
Facts in science can not change only the assumptions that scientist make can be changed.
As I have said, an "assumption" in science is a fact that has been verified in another context. The example I gave was radioactive decay. We do not have to verify it as fact every single time we measure the age of a rock or a bone because it has been verified as fact multiple dimes in different contexts.
ICANT writes:
How many parts of the Big Bang Theory has to be wrong before scientist will agree it is not the best explanation for the observations?
It doesn't matter how many parts are "wrong". As long as it's the best explanation, it's the best explanation.
ICANT writes:
From Message 1367
3. "The truth" can be seen as an absolute.
Either truth is absolute or it is not it can not be both.
You're misrepresenting what I said. Here's the whole quote:
quote:
3. "The truth" can be seen as an absolute. What science finds can always be improved/amended. Message 1367
Science doesn't search for absolute truth because it isn't possible to know when we've found it.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1375 by ICANT, posted 12-13-2018 5:38 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1378 by ICANT, posted 12-15-2018 2:34 AM ringo has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 1378 of 1482 (845372)
12-15-2018 2:34 AM
Reply to: Message 1377 by ringo
12-14-2018 10:54 AM


Re: Creation
Hi ringo
ringo writes:
No. Anything found through prayer and meditation is unreliable unless it can be verified objectively. We know that because "truths" found through prayer and meditation vary widely among different groups of believers.
How do you know whether anything can or can not happen because of prayer?
But you are correct truth is not found through prayer unless you are looking for spiritual truth.
ringo writes:
How can you know when "the truth" has been reached?
When you have facts that supports the theory.
Until you have the facts you have nothing but belief.
ringo writes:
Our understanding of facts can change. At one time, Newtonian physics was considered to be "the truth" but now we know it isn't the whole truth. It would be foolish to pretend that what we know about physics today is the whole truth.
Facts do not change ever.
What you believe to be true is what changes not the facts. Only what you believe to be facts.
It is your understanding that is flawed, not the facts.
Do you even know what a fact is?
A fact is a thing that is indisputably true.
The universe exists.
The earth exists.
The computer I am using to transfer this post exists.
The keyboard I am typing on exists.
And the list goes on and on.
ringo writes:
It doesn't matter how many parts are "wrong". As long as it's the best explanation, it's the best explanation.
If it is not true it is not the best explanation. It may be the best science can come up with but that does not make it a fact. It remains a hypothesis something that is accepted by faith.
ringo writes:
Science doesn't search for absolute truth because it isn't possible to know when we've found it.
Are you telling me that it is not a fact that the universe exists?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1377 by ringo, posted 12-14-2018 10:54 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1379 by ringo, posted 12-15-2018 11:24 AM ICANT has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1379 of 1482 (845388)
12-15-2018 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1378 by ICANT
12-15-2018 2:34 AM


Re: Creation
ICANT writes:
How do you know whether anything can or can not happen because of prayer?
Objective evidence. Apologists have all kinds of excuses for why it doesn't work.
ICANT writes:
ringo writes:
How can you know when "the truth" has been reached?
When you have facts that supports the theory.
But you claimed that there is such a thing as absolute truth. To reach absolute truth, you'd need to have ALL of the facts, not just some facts. How can you know when you have all of the facts?
ICANT writes:
Facts do not change ever.
What you believe to be true is what changes not the facts.
For all intents and purposes, facts ARE what is believed to be true at any given time. We can not be sure that a "fact" will never change.
ICANT writes:
A fact is a thing that is indisputably true.
Nothing is indisputable.
ICANT writes:
If it is not true it is not the best explanation.
The best explanation IS the best explanation. It may well turn out to not be "true" - Newtonian physics, for example.
ICANT writes:
Are you telling me that it is not a fact that the universe exists?
Again, you should read what I write instead of just making it up in your head. I said, "Science doesn't search for absolute truth because it isn't possible to know when we've found it." How can you determine when "absolute truth" has been found?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1378 by ICANT, posted 12-15-2018 2:34 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1380 by Phat, posted 12-15-2018 11:34 AM ringo has replied
 Message 1382 by ICANT, posted 12-15-2018 2:06 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1380 of 1482 (845391)
12-15-2018 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 1379 by ringo
12-15-2018 11:24 AM


Re: Creation
Ringo, to ICANT writes:
But you claimed that there is such a thing as absolute truth. To reach absolute truth, you'd need to have ALL of the facts, not just some facts. How can you know when you have all of the facts?
Of course, you can't know. You can believe that all of the facts exist, even though you do not yet know them. And who says we have to "reach" absolute truth? Perhaps absolute truth reaches us. Of course, as I have said before, you may stand at the altar forever, ring in hand, awaiting evidence. You won't make a move until all of the facts are in. Yet that day may not come soon. Are you satisfied to simply wait?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1379 by ringo, posted 12-15-2018 11:24 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1381 by ringo, posted 12-15-2018 11:40 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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