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Author Topic:   Exploring (mostly Cultural) Marxism in today's Left
Riggamortis
Member (Idle past 2410 days)
Posts: 167
From: Australia
Joined: 08-15-2016


Message 211 of 381 (813495)
06-28-2017 5:10 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by Faith
06-27-2017 10:29 PM


Re: Cultural Marxism: The Architects of Western Decline
quote:
What I'm getting at here is the ideology of the Left, specifically the Frankfurt School who did have a tremendous influence on the generation of the sixties and whose ideas are now embedded in the culture.
I watched the video. The arguments it made were mostly about how the MSM portrays things. I see both sides of the MSM as corporate propaganda. They mislead the public by omission reagarding the financial system every day. That is why I'm saying that your paranoia of the 'left' is based on the fact that you've been reeled in by the 'right'. They're both still pushing the infinite growth model in spite of the fact that it isn't conducive to the long term survival of our species. It is destroying and polluting our planet. It will end in catastrophe.
I care about the world my son will inherit more so than the amount of money. I care about the world his children and their children will inherit. We need a democratic revolution and it needs to be at least somewhat socialist to be able to address sustainability as a priority. That is a fact any reasonable person ought to be able to deduce after some thought and an honest look at the situation.
quote:
You keep addressing something in your own mind rather than what I'm actually presenting here.
To be fair, you're not really presenting anything but Christian persecution complex and paranoia. I'm trying to talk some sense into you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Faith, posted 06-27-2017 10:29 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by Faith, posted 06-28-2017 7:43 AM Riggamortis has replied

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


(1)
Message 212 of 381 (813504)
06-28-2017 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
06-20-2017 7:53 AM


I'm not a politician or anything like that, but I've not seen such extreme poverty as in the US by people in Finland, Sweden, Norway, Germany, the Netherlands and those places. I've seen lots of extreme poverty in Russia, Poland, the US, etc.
So, maybe some middle ground in economic policies work more satisfactory for the majority of people? Somewhere between outright capitalism and outright communism?
Just my thoughts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Faith, posted 06-20-2017 7:53 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Faith, posted 06-28-2017 7:52 AM Pressie has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 213 of 381 (813505)
06-28-2017 7:43 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by Riggamortis
06-28-2017 5:10 AM


Re: Cultural Marxism: The Architects of Western Decline
What I'm getting at here is the ideology of the Left, specifically the Frankfurt School who did have a tremendous influence on the generation of the sixties and whose ideas are now embedded in the culture.
I watched the video. The arguments it made were mostly about how the MSM portrays things.
That's not how I remember it.
I see both sides of the MSM as corporate propaganda. They mislead the public by omission reagarding the financial system every day.
I've tried to tell you I'm not up on economics so there's no point in trying to tell me about it. I hear the right discuss it too and it just goes over my head. I have, however seen some discussion of capitalism versus Marxism/Communism as economic theories and am definitely on the side of Capitalism -- again, as economic theory. This is an entirely different subject from what politicians do. Human nature can distort anything. Don't blame bad economic policies on Capitalism when it's just people being people. If there's a battle to be fought, right the right one. Communism is the wrong one.
That is why I'm saying that your paranoia of the 'left' is based on the fact that you've been reeled in by the 'right'.
You don't know me and you don't know what has influenced me so please keep your theories about what motivates me to yourself. I lived through the growing influence of the Frankfurt School when I was still a liberal, or thought I was, and I hated it even then, without having much ability to say why. Mostly it made me nervous, some kind of force taking things over that just made me nervous. It was Destructive at least, hating America which I loved, destroying things for no good reason, making people hate each other, calling my family "Oppressors" -- my working class Democrat father? Yes that was implied in the evil stuff people were believing. DO NOT TELL ME HOW I CAME TO MY OPINIONS. I BECAME a conservative much much later, after becoming a Christian also much later. I have an independent mind, I did not need the "right" or anyone to tell me what to think. I decide whether what someone else says is right or not, I decide it, they don't. I had no idea what conservatives thought back in the sixties when I thought I was a liberal. Oh I heard all the leftist hatred of the right though. It was years before I actually read conservative opinion. Those who recognize the evil in Cultural Marxism and its pervasive influence in today's world I believe are right based on my own judgment from my own experience. I was SO relieved to discover there are such people in the world after being surrounded by nothing but "liberals."
Those on the other hand who are convinced of the rightness of Cultural Marxism got it at university where professors made the case for it day after day until they ended up brainwashed.
They're both still pushing the infinite growth model in spite of the fact that it isn't conducive to the long term survival of our species. It is destroying and polluting our planet. It will end in catastrophe.
I suspect you've become convinced of a wrong theory, but in any case that's not the subject on this thread. There are other threads that discuss that so maybe you could get on one of those or start your own.
I care about the world my son will inherit more so than the amount of money. I care about the world his children and their children will inherit.
We all care about that. Every day I worry about the world my grandsons are growing up into.
We need a democratic revolution and it needs to be at least somewhat socialist to be able to address sustainability as a priority.
Your very strong opinion doesn't belong on this thread but you might be able to make a good case for it, just not here. I might even agree with you about some of your opinion, except that if we need a "revolution" I'd see it as a revolution that restores basic American values to America after the destruction of the culture by the Left.
That is a fact any reasonable person ought to be able to deduce after some thought and an honest look at the situation.
Forgive me if I have the temerity to have a different opinion.
You keep addressing something in your own mind rather than what I'm actually presenting here.
To be fair, you're not really presenting anything but Christian persecution complex and paranoia. I'm trying to talk some sense into you.
I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that you are one of those on the left who really cannot think, or you think with your emotions, and you're so convinced of your conclusions you'd be happy to force them on all the rest of us without the slightest warrant,
Nothing you've said on this thread has anything whatever to do with MY concerns.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Riggamortis, posted 06-28-2017 5:10 AM Riggamortis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by Riggamortis, posted 06-28-2017 9:11 AM Faith has replied
 Message 221 by caffeine, posted 06-28-2017 1:48 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 214 of 381 (813506)
06-28-2017 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by Pressie
06-28-2017 7:35 AM


Two points:
1) You are comparing small mostly homogeneous cultures with a big nation of many different parts. They never had the problems we have.
2) This thread is not about economic policies, it's mostly about cultural influences. In fact I think I'm going to change the title to make that clear.
I do still invite discussion of classical Marxism, but not so much as a debate, more as information about where it all started. Caffeine has done some of that. I can't get into economic debates here but I don't have a problem with others presenting information on the level of theory for the sake of historical reference if nothing else.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Pressie, posted 06-28-2017 7:35 AM Pressie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by Pressie, posted 06-28-2017 8:07 AM Faith has replied

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 215 of 381 (813508)
06-28-2017 8:07 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by Faith
06-28-2017 7:52 AM


Faith writes:
Two points:
1) You are comparing small mostly homogeneous cultures with a big nation of many different parts. They never had the problems we have.
Actually, Germany is not small, neither homogenous. Before unification, the western part was democratic and prosperous under a social democratic system. The eastern part was quite poor under a communist system, but still the most affluent country in the eastern block.
Faith writes:
2) This thread is not about economic policies, it's about cultural influences. In fact I think I'm going to change the title to make that clear.
OK. Cultural. Not economic. Why didn't you do it from the beginning?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Faith, posted 06-28-2017 7:52 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by Faith, posted 06-28-2017 8:58 AM Pressie has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 216 of 381 (813513)
06-28-2017 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by Pressie
06-28-2017 8:07 AM


Maybe I shouldn't have invited any discussion of classical economic Marxism at all. When I wrote the OP I wasn't really sure how broad I wanted to make the topic. I did try to emphasize that my own participation would be limited to Cultural Marxism but perhaps all that did was confuse things. So, sorry about that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Pressie, posted 06-28-2017 8:07 AM Pressie has not replied

  
Riggamortis
Member (Idle past 2410 days)
Posts: 167
From: Australia
Joined: 08-15-2016


(4)
Message 217 of 381 (813514)
06-28-2017 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by Faith
06-28-2017 7:43 AM


Re: Cultural Marxism: The Architects of Western Decline
quote:
Human nature can distort anything. Don't blame bad economic policies on Capitalism when it's just people being people. If there's a battle to be fought, right the right one. Communism is the wrong one.
The human nature argument is nonsense. Humans are a social species and naturally cooperative. We have no need for competition, naturally, outside reproduction or a shortage of resources. We have the resources and things that need to be done but we don't have the money, cos capitalism. The system we have now rewards greed and therefore produces greedy people. It's not rocket science.
quote:
It was Destructive at least, hating America which I loved, destroying things for no good reason, making people hate each other, calling my family "Oppressors" -- my working class Democrat father? Yes that was implied in the evil stuff people were believing.
So people having opinions about white man having just spent the last 500 years raping and pillaging their way across the planet in the name of greed were destroying what exactly? Your little bubble of self righteous ignorance?
quote:
I suspect you've become convinced of a wrong theory, but in any case that's not the subject on this thread.
I'm not talking about climate change, if that's what you mean. Just sustainability and pollution in general.
quote:
I decide whether what someone else says is right or not, I decide it, they don't.
See that's your problem, the definitions of the words and reality decide if they're correct or not.
DO NOT TELL ME HOW I CAME TO MY OPINIONS
Those on the other hand who are convinced of the rightness of Cultural Marxism got it at university where professors made the case for it day after day until they ended up brainwashed.
1. Cultural Marxism is a made up term used to describe the social phenomena of people recognising and defending human rights.
2. I didn't go to university, so where does that leave you?
quote:
I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that you are one of those on the left who really cannot think, or you think with your emotions, and you're so convinced of your conclusions you'd be happy to force them on all the rest of us without the slightest warrant
Well I didn't go to uni and get brainwashed so I guess I must've thought a bit to come to my conclusions. I am quite confident I can defend them much better than you yours. I do have the advantage of not needing to reference magic sky daddies though. Or defend greed as the founding principle of society.
Sure I'd be HAPPY to force interest free credit on you and have you pay next to no tax because the government is using the power of money creation for the people. I'd be really happy to force all the jobs on everyone that would be created in the public sector. I'd be even more happy to force a sustainable future on my grandchildren. It simply isn't going to happen under this current system.
'Cultural Marxism' is basically some people observing others making minorites feel like shit and opening their mouths to make the offending party feel like shit. At the end of the day it only generates animosity. Both sides play the bleeding heart snowflake vs racist bigot game and we continue down the path of Einstein's definition of insanity..

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Faith, posted 06-28-2017 7:43 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by Faith, posted 06-28-2017 9:23 AM Riggamortis has not replied
 Message 219 by jar, posted 06-28-2017 9:24 AM Riggamortis has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 218 of 381 (813516)
06-28-2017 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by Riggamortis
06-28-2017 9:11 AM


Re: Cultural Marxism: The Architects of Western Decline
Well, whatever the cause, you've bought the package whole. It's the theory itself that causes the animosity you think it merely analyzes. I believe there's enough evidence just on this thread to show how wrong you are, but I gather nothing is going to change your mind. So you've made yourself clear, thanks for your input.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Riggamortis, posted 06-28-2017 9:11 AM Riggamortis has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 414 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 219 of 381 (813517)
06-28-2017 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by Riggamortis
06-28-2017 9:11 AM


Re: Cultural Marxism: The Architects of Western Decline
"Cultural Marxism" is about as real as the Biblical Flood, Garden of Eden, Conquest of Canaan, the Exodus or Young Earth; in other words simply a fantasy.
The fact is that there is almost no Marxist facets in today's left.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Riggamortis, posted 06-28-2017 9:11 AM Riggamortis has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 220 of 381 (813526)
06-28-2017 10:05 AM


A Review of Political Correctness and Its Marxist Roots
Every now and then I like to post this classical discussion of Political Correctness by Bill Lind, one of the first clear identifications of the destructive work of the Frankfurt School and its enduring legacy in our time:
If we compare the basic tenets of Political Correctness with classical Marxism the parallels are very obvious.
First of all, both are totalitarian ideologies. The totalitarian nature of Political Correctness is revealed nowhere more clearly than on college campuses, many of which at this point are small ivy covered North Koreas, where the student or faculty member who dares to cross any of the lines set up by the gender feminist or the homosexual-rights activists, or the local black or Hispanic group, or any of the other sainted victims groups that PC revolves around, quickly find themselves in judicial trouble. Within the small legal system of the college, they face formal charges — some star-chamber proceeding — and punishment. That is a little look into the future that Political Correctness intends for the nation as a whole.
Indeed, all ideologies are totalitarian because the essence of an ideology (I would note that conservatism correctly understood is not an ideology) is to take some philosophy and say on the basis of this philosophy certain things must be true — such as the whole of the history of our culture is the history of the oppression of women.
Since reality contradicts that, reality must be forbidden. It must become forbidden to acknowledge the reality of our history. People must be forced to live a lie, and since people are naturally reluctant to live a lie, they naturally use their ears and eyes to look out and say, Wait a minute. This isn’t true. I can see it isn’t true, the power of the state must be put behind the demand to live a lie. That is why ideology invariably creates a totalitarian state.
Second, the cultural Marxism of Political Correctness, like economic Marxism, has a single factor explanation of history. Economic Marxism says that all of history is determined by ownership of means of production. Cultural Marxism, or Political Correctness, says that all history is determined by power, by which groups defined in terms of race, sex, etc., have power over which other groups. Nothing else matters. All literature, indeed, is about that. Everything in the past is about that one thing.
Third, just as in classical economic Marxism certain groups, i.e. workers and peasants, are a priori good, and other groups, i.e., the bourgeoisie and capital owners, are evil. In the cultural Marxism of Political Correctness certain groups are good — feminist women, (only feminist women, non-feminist women are deemed not to exist) blacks, Hispanics, homosexuals. These groups are determined to be victims, and therefore automatically good regardless of what any of them do. Similarly, white males are determined automatically to be evil, thereby becoming the equivalent of the bourgeoisie in economic Marxism.
Fourth, both economic and cultural Marxism rely on expropriation. When the classical Marxists, the communists, took over a country like Russia, they expropriated the bourgeoisie, they took away their property. Similarly, when the cultural Marxists take over a university campus, they expropriate through things like quotas for admissions. When a white student with superior qualifications is denied admittance to a college in favor of a black or Hispanic who isn’t as well qualified, the white student is expropriated. And indeed, affirmative action, in our whole society today, is a system of expropriation. White owned companies don’t get a contract because the contract is reserved for a company owned by, say, Hispanics or women. So expropriation is a principle tool for both forms of Marxism.
And finally, both have a method of analysis that automatically gives the answers they want. For the classical Marxist, it’s Marxist economics. For the cultural Marxist, it’s deconstruction.
Deconstruction essentially takes any text, removes all meaning from it and re-inserts any meaning desired. So we find, for example, that all of Shakespeare is about the suppression of women, or the Bible is really about race and gender. All of these texts simply become grist for the mill, which proves that all history is about which groups have power over which other groups. So the parallels are very evident between the classical Marxism that we’re familiar with in the old Soviet Union and the cultural Marxism that we see today as Political Correctness.
And here's an article showing how PC functions in our day to destroy culture, how Europe is being destroyed because of it. Of course I'm sure there are many here who would be happy to see Europe destroyed and replaced by the far more deserving "brown people" of Islam. After all Europe is basically nothing but oppressive white men and is formerly nothing but oppressive Christianity. Away with it and so much the better. Do away with the men and rape the women. Then the Left will be happy.
Lots of people just LOVE Political Correctness of course, and think it's a good thing, it's necessary to kill the former racist world and all the other cultural ills of society as identified by Critical Theory. No matter that it's a false theory, they intend to believe it anyway.
This attack on individual human beings is unprecedented. It will either bring down all culture and lead us into the war to end all wars, or maybe God will have mercy on us and open some eyes to the truth before it's too late.

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by Faith, posted 06-28-2017 11:26 PM Faith has not replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1044 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


(4)
Message 221 of 381 (813545)
06-28-2017 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by Faith
06-28-2017 7:43 AM


Re: Cultural Marxism: The Architects of Western Decline
You don't know me and you don't know what has influenced me so please keep your theories about what motivates me to yourself. (...) DO NOT TELL ME HOW I CAME TO MY OPINIONS. (...)I have an independent mind, I did not need the "right" or anyone to tell me what to think. I decide whether what someone else says is right or not, I decide it, they don't. (...)
Those on the other hand who are convinced of the rightness of Cultural Marxism got it at university where professors made the case for it day after day until they ended up brainwashed.
Was that an intentional joke?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Faith, posted 06-28-2017 7:43 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by ringo, posted 06-28-2017 3:54 PM caffeine has not replied
 Message 223 by Faith, posted 06-28-2017 4:48 PM caffeine has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 432 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 222 of 381 (813568)
06-28-2017 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by caffeine
06-28-2017 1:48 PM


Re: Cultural Marxism: The Architects of Western Decline
caffeine writes:
Was that an intentional joke?
Since Faith never looks in the mirror, it occurs to me that she may be a vampire - or at least a cultural vampire.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by caffeine, posted 06-28-2017 1:48 PM caffeine has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 223 of 381 (813572)
06-28-2017 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by caffeine
06-28-2017 1:48 PM


Re: Cultural Marxism: The Architects of Western Decline
Not a joke, just didn't get it said as well as I should have. I certainly don't think they make a legitimate case which is what would make it a joke, they just teach it and preach it to their captive audience until it's accepted as truth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by caffeine, posted 06-28-2017 1:48 PM caffeine has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by Riggamortis, posted 06-28-2017 5:19 PM Faith has not replied

  
Riggamortis
Member (Idle past 2410 days)
Posts: 167
From: Australia
Joined: 08-15-2016


(2)
Message 224 of 381 (813577)
06-28-2017 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by Faith
06-28-2017 4:48 PM


Re: Cultural Marxism: The Architects of Western Decline
Not a joke, just didn't get it said as well as I should have. I certainly don't think they make a legitimate case which is what would make it a joke, they just teach it and preach it to their captive audience until it's accepted as truth
I've made a legitimate case for it from several angles on this very thread. You have stated that you're incapable of evaluating the economic arguments. You are therefore incapable of holding an informed opinion on the matter. Yet you hold not just an opinion on the matter, but knowledge, you know communism isn't the way. Pretty impressive for someone who can't even evaluate the arguments.
I think you've watched too much US propaganda. You don't think this is an educational video, do you?
https://youtu.be/fTs1w6M-sVM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Faith, posted 06-28-2017 4:48 PM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 414 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 225 of 381 (813580)
06-28-2017 7:42 PM


What is really funny about this nonsense ...
is that no one has shown any evidence of any Western decline. In fact the reality shows just the opposite; far from any decline there has been a steady increase in morality, health, well being and longevity, particularly in the more secular, liberal, progressive and socialist nations. Granted the US does seem to have fallen behind in all areas and in direct relation to the rise of the Christian Right Fascist movement beginning around the time of Reagan.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

  
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