Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The TRVE history of the Flood...
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 1261 of 1352 (813943)
07-02-2017 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1241 by ringo
06-28-2017 3:23 PM


Re: Flood waters receeded into depths
Hi ringo,
ringo writes:
I've already showed you that your interpretation makes no sense in context.
You have asserted your opinion.
You have not shown anything.
The Hebrew word used in Genesis 10:25 is used only 3 other times in the Bible.
1. It is repeated word for word in 1 Ch 1:19
2. Job 38:25 says who hath divided a watercourse. (the only way to do that is use land masses)
3. Psa 55:9 a man was praying for God to split the peoples tongue's.
Where in the context of those verses does it support you claim?
They all support mine.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1241 by ringo, posted 06-28-2017 3:23 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1263 by NoNukes, posted 07-03-2017 3:11 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 1267 by ringo, posted 07-03-2017 11:44 AM ICANT has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 1262 of 1352 (813947)
07-02-2017 11:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1259 by ICANT
07-02-2017 9:23 PM


Tectonic Speed
The plate movement is slowing, that is a fact.
Really? That is the first I've heard of that. In fact, everything I've ever read suggests it has stayed roughly constant for millions of years. In at least some locations like the movement of the Hawaiian Islands and the opening of the Atlantic.
Where is the factual information behind your statement, please?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1259 by ICANT, posted 07-02-2017 9:23 PM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1272 by CRR, posted 07-08-2017 4:46 AM NosyNed has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 1263 of 1352 (813948)
07-03-2017 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1261 by ICANT
07-02-2017 10:15 PM


Re: Flood waters receeded into depths
Where in the context of those verses does it support you claim?
Easily answered. Consider the third cited usage:
3. Psa 55:9 a man was praying for God to split the peoples tongue's[sic]
So why would this be a literal splitting of the tongue and not a request to separate folks as was done in the Tower of Babel incident? This is not my argument, but the one given by AIG.
Did the Continents Split Apart in the Days of Peleg? | Answers in Genesis
quote:
Palag
This Hebrew word palag is used only three times in Scripture outside of Genesis 10. In 1 Chronicles 1:19 it repeats Genesis 10:25. In one case it refers to a splitting of a water channel when it overflows in poetic Job 38:25. The other usage is in Psalm 55:9 where it refers to splitting of people. David was speaking of his enemies and was asking the Lord to judge them with the splitting of their tongues. Obviously, David was conjuring thoughts of the Tower of Babel and tongue-shifting there.
Peleg’s name was a direct derivation of palag, and considering the context of Genesis 10, it makes sense this Hebrew name was indeed referring to the linguistic division. So there would be no reason to distance from this plain interpretation.
Given the paucity of usages in the text, with at least two of the four having context suggesting the same interpretation, your argument cannot be considered conclusive.
And of course there is also the issue that we know that the Bible does tell us that the folks of earth were scattering according to language, so saying that David asking that the same thing be done to his detractors is at least reasonable.
I would further add that the usage to mean splitting of a water course really does not serve your purpose very well. You don't need to split a land mass to divide a water course. I don't see any reason why a word that means to divide a people could not also be used to talking about dividing up a water course, and you have not made a case that it does not.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1261 by ICANT, posted 07-02-2017 10:15 PM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1264 by PaulK, posted 07-03-2017 3:30 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1264 of 1352 (813949)
07-03-2017 3:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1263 by NoNukes
07-03-2017 3:11 AM


Re: Flood waters receeded into depths
Indeed. If ICANT had bothered to check his concordance he would see that the word translated as "tongue" can mean "language".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1263 by NoNukes, posted 07-03-2017 3:11 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


(2)
Message 1265 of 1352 (813951)
07-03-2017 4:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1253 by ICANT
07-01-2017 1:53 AM


Re: Flood waters receeded into depths
ICANT writes:
Well I know the land mass was all in one place at one time Genesis 1:9 tells me that.
Rodinia? Pangea? Which one?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1253 by ICANT, posted 07-01-2017 1:53 AM ICANT has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 1266 of 1352 (813984)
07-03-2017 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1233 by ICANT
06-28-2017 12:52 PM


Re: Flood waters receeded into depths
Why would the author choose a different word in verse 25 which is between the usage in verse 5 and 32 if he did not want to say something different.
Artistic license.
The worst thing to do is assume the literal meaning/usage of the word must be conveying some secret meaning that only you can decode.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1233 by ICANT, posted 06-28-2017 12:52 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1267 of 1352 (814002)
07-03-2017 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1261 by ICANT
07-02-2017 10:15 PM


Re: Flood waters receeded into depths
ICANT writes:
You have not shown anything.
You seem to be the only one who doesn't see it.
ICANT writes:
Psa 55:9 a man was praying for God to split the peoples tongue's.
You're shooting yourself in the foot. The people's tongues were also split at Babel - no land or water involved in either case.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1261 by ICANT, posted 07-02-2017 10:15 PM ICANT has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 1268 of 1352 (814041)
07-03-2017 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1259 by ICANT
07-02-2017 9:23 PM


Re: Flood waters receeded into depths
And just how do you know that Pangea existed 200 million year ago?
Physical evidence.
I was referring to dry land as there was wet land under all the ocean.
Then it wasn't land, was it?
But actually the water was gathered to one place and left the dry land.
How was it 'gathered'?
I don't think of it being plate tectonics. I think of it as a puzzle together then moved to the different parts.
But we have evidence for plate tectonics.
You don't have to believe it but that was no accident.
When it comes to YEC cognition, I consider it to be an accident.
The plate movement is slowing, that is a fact.
On a scale of billions of years, I'll go with that. For the last 300 million years it's been variable, but essentially of the same order of magnitude.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1259 by ICANT, posted 07-02-2017 9:23 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Pollux
Member
Posts: 303
Joined: 11-13-2011


(2)
Message 1269 of 1352 (814062)
07-04-2017 1:16 AM
Reply to: Message 1260 by ICANT
07-02-2017 9:56 PM


Re: Re:More plate tectonics
Hi ICANT,
I agree that any creative deity worth his salt could move the land masses around in a nanosecond. The first question that could be asked is "From where?" since the evidence is that they came together and parted several times.
But leaving that aside, if the land masses were moved in a nanosecond:
- Why are there chains of sea-mounts that look like they were formed successively by passing over a hot spot?
- Why do they look older as you move away from the hot spot.
- Why are their radiometric ages consistent with current rates of plate movement, or near to it?
- Why are the ages of seafloor older as you move away from mid-ocean ridges, up to a maximum of 200,000,000 years as seafloor is subducted, and consistent with rates of movement?
- Why is there a chain of volcanic plugs with the cones eroded away in Eastern Australia, getting older from south to north, with ages consistent with the rate of movement of the Australian plate?
- If I am wrong in inferring from this evidence (not to mention a mass of other evidence) that the world is old and Science has it right, what conclusion should I reach?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1260 by ICANT, posted 07-02-2017 9:56 PM ICANT has not replied

  
CRR
Member (Idle past 2242 days)
Posts: 579
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 1270 of 1352 (814361)
07-08-2017 2:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1252 by Pollux
06-30-2017 8:02 PM


Re: Post Flood Ice Age
Cores from the ocean floor near the coast of Spain gives an example of other evidence. Layers of fine silt with forest pollens alternate with ones of coarse deposit and grass pollens. This is because under warm conditions the core site is far from the shore so only fine silt from the nearby rivers reach it, and a warm forest grows on the land.
quote:
Geologists have claimed that these features have been found in ancient rock layers, proving that there had been previous ice ages over geologic time. Many lines of evidence now indicate that the observations have been misinterpreted:
The ‘tillites’ of lower rock layers are small in area, commonly thick, and probably all of marine origin, whereas those of modern glaciers are relatively large in area, thin, and continental.
There are limestones and dolomites frequently associated with these ‘tillites’carbonates which form today in warm water, not cold.
The largest boulders in the ancient ‘tillites’ are much smaller than the larger boulders being deposited by glacial action today.
Underwater mass flows can produce tillite-like deposits, as well as striated bedrock and striated stones in the ‘tillite’. Such mass flows would be expected during Noah’s Flood.
Turbidity currents can deposit varve-like laminated sediments very quickly. These sediments are more accurately called rhythmites. A varve is defined as a rhythmite deposited in one year. Lambert and Hsu have presented evidence from a Swiss lake that such varve-like rhythmites form rapidly by catastrophic turbid water underflows.
At one location, five couplets of these varve-like rhythmites formed during a single year. At Mount St Helens in the USA, a stratified deposit 8 m (25 ft) thick, consisting of many thin varve-like laminae, was formed in less than one day (12 June 1980). Flow tank experiments have shown how laminations can form rapidly when two different grain sizes are carried together in flowing water.10
The so-called ‘dropstones’ could not have been dropped into the ancient ‘varvites’11 because such a method of placement would result in tell-tale disturbance of the laminations, which is rarely observed. The evidence suggests they were placed with the enclosing sediments by turbidity currents or other mass flowsagain consistent with what would be expected during a global Flood. In other words the ‘varvites’ did not come from cyclical, annual, glacial lake deposition.
The Creation Answers Book Chapter 16 by Dr Don Batten (contributing editor), Dr David Catchpoole, Dr Jonathan Sarfati and Dr Carl Wieland
quote:
One of these supposed ice age deposits that has been reinterpreted as a mass flow is a Late Precambrian (Neoproterozoic) ‘tillite’ in northern Namibia. ...
The Namibian deposit, the Chuos ‘tillite’, was considered a glacial deposit when first analyzed in 1931. It correlates with many other Neoproterozoic supposed glacial deposits in West Africa, as well as many other locations across the earth. Two out of three diagnostic properties for an ancient glaciation were claimed for the Chuos and several other ‘tillites’: these are striated rocks and dropstone varvites. ...
But, Schermerhorn questioned many Neoproterozoic claimed tillites, and especially the Namibian ‘ice age’ deposits. Upon considering Schermerhorn’s criticisms, Martin, who first believed that the Namibian deposits were glacial from his analysis in the 1960s, reanalyzed the deposits and reinterpreted the Chuos ‘tillite’ as the product of mass flow. ...
Recently Nick Eyles, a long-time expert on both Pleistocene and pre-Pleistocene ice age deposits, and Nicole Januszczak reanalyzed the Namibian deposits again and emphatically stated that the deposits are subaqueous mass flow deposits. (15)
An ancient ‘ice age’ deposit attributed to subaqueous mass flowagain! Michael J. Oard, JOURNAL OF CREATION 22(2) 2008 here
As an aside, Noah did not seem to notice the Ice Age when he planted his vineyard
Of course, because it would have taken hundreds of years for the ice age to develop following the flood, and in any case the ice only covered northern Europe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1252 by Pollux, posted 06-30-2017 8:02 PM Pollux has not replied

  
CRR
Member (Idle past 2242 days)
Posts: 579
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 1271 of 1352 (814362)
07-08-2017 4:34 AM
Reply to: Message 1251 by RAZD
06-30-2017 8:21 AM


Re: Ice Cores.
The Lost Squadron in Greenland shows how ice cores can be misinterpreted to greatly exaggerate ages. In 46 years, from 1942 to 1988, the 8 aircraft were covered by 75m of ice showing hundreds of "annual" layers.
The lost squadron - creation.com
Hugh Ross correctly points out that the southeast corner of the Greenland Ice Sheet [where the lost squadron landed] is a relatively warm area with very high snowfall. However, this situation shows that with a different climate regime during the Ice Age with no sea ice and a warm ocean, the rapid development of the Greenland Ice Sheet can occur. Snowfall was much heavier in the first several post—Flood centurieseven heavier than snowfall near the shores of Greenland today.
Cold comfort for long-agers - creation.com
Ice core clamour - creation.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1251 by RAZD, posted 06-30-2017 8:21 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1273 by Tangle, posted 07-08-2017 5:22 AM CRR has replied
 Message 1276 by RAZD, posted 07-08-2017 8:13 AM CRR has not replied
 Message 1277 by JonF, posted 07-08-2017 9:12 AM CRR has not replied
 Message 1278 by Pollux, posted 07-08-2017 8:12 PM CRR has not replied
 Message 1279 by Pollux, posted 07-08-2017 8:35 PM CRR has not replied

  
CRR
Member (Idle past 2242 days)
Posts: 579
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 1272 of 1352 (814363)
07-08-2017 4:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1262 by NosyNed
07-02-2017 11:48 PM


Re: Tectonic Speed
I've seen articles suggesting they are speeding up but Professor Sergei Pisarevskiy has come to the tentative conclusion that the average rate of tectonic plate movement does change.
"Right now for example it's slower than it was half a billion years agobut approximately the same as it was one and a half billion years ago," he says.
Read more at: https://phys.org/...8-world-tectonic-plate-movement.html#jCp
Geophysicists have discovered something startling about tectonic plates: when under extreme stress, they hit the gas and can accelerate in speed by up to 20 times.
When they're about to split, the plates can move about as fast as the human fingernail grows, and that's very fast indeed as far as continental drift is concerned.
Read more at: Scientists Just Figured Out Continental Plates Can Move Up to 20 Times Faster Than We Thought : ScienceAlert
They are still only talking about rates of ~20mm/year but it shows that plate movement does not have to be constant. Since they are trying to fit movements into a "millions of years" paradigm it's not surprising they get low numbers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1262 by NosyNed, posted 07-02-2017 11:48 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1273 of 1352 (814364)
07-08-2017 5:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1271 by CRR
07-08-2017 4:34 AM


Re: Ice Cores.
Ffs CRR - it's a PRATT
quote:
Claim CD410:
Ice cores are claimed to have as many as 135,000 annual layers. Yet airplanes of the Lost Squadron were buried under 263 feet of ice in forty-eight years, or about 5.5 feet per year. This contradicts the presumption that the wafer-thin layers in the ice cores could be annual layers.
Source:
Vardiman, Larry. 1992. Ice cores and the age of the earth. Impact 226 (Apr.). The Institute for Creation Research
Response:
Ice layers are counted by different methods (mainly, visible layers of hoar frost, visible dust layers, and layers of differing electrical conductivity) which have nothing to do with thickness. These methods corroborate each other and match with other independently determined dates (Seely 2003).
The airplanes landed near the shore of Greenland, where snow accumulation is rapid, at about 2 m per year. Allowing for some compaction due to the weight of the snow, that accounts for the depth of snow under which they are buried. The planes are also on an active glacier and have moved about 2 km since landing. Ice core dating takes place on stable ice fields, not active glaciers. The interior of Greenland, where ice cores were taken, receives much less snow. In Antarctica, where ice cores dating back more than 100,000 years have been collected, the rate of snow accumulation is much less still.
A report of "many hundreds" of layers in the ice above the Lost Squadron may also be explained by the airplanes' location on Greenland. That location is relatively warm because it is low and more southerly; its surface gets repeatedly melted during the summer, creating multiple melt layers per year. At the site of the GISP2 ice core, melting occurs only about once every couple centuries. Melt layers are easily distinguished in ice cores. The more than 100,000 layers in ice cores are definitely not melt layers (Seely 2003).
Links:
Kuechmann, F. C., 2000. Creationist comedy. cretin comedy
References:
Seely, Paul H. 2003. The GISP2 ice core: Ultimate proof that Noah's flood was not global. Perspectives on Science and Christian Faith 55(4): 252-260. http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2003/PSCF12-03Seely.pdf
Further Reading:
Seely, Paul H. 2003. The GISP2 ice core: Ultimate proof that Noah's flood was not global. Perspectives on Science and Christian Faith 55(4): 252-260. http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2003/PSCF12-03Seely.pdf
Brinkman, Matt, 1995. Ice core dating. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/icecores.html

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1271 by CRR, posted 07-08-2017 4:34 AM CRR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1274 by CRR, posted 07-08-2017 6:25 AM Tangle has replied

  
CRR
Member (Idle past 2242 days)
Posts: 579
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 1274 of 1352 (814365)
07-08-2017 6:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1273 by Tangle
07-08-2017 5:22 AM


Re: Ice Cores.
You obviously didn't read the second paragraph where I mentioned the much higher rate of snowfall in the area where the lost squadron was found.
But yes I should have referred to a more recent article. Are the Greenland and Antarctic Ice Sheets old?
Edited by CRR, : added 2nd paragraph

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1273 by Tangle, posted 07-08-2017 5:22 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1275 by Tangle, posted 07-08-2017 6:34 AM CRR has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 1275 of 1352 (814366)
07-08-2017 6:34 AM
Reply to: Message 1274 by CRR
07-08-2017 6:25 AM


Re: Ice Cores.
CRR writes:
You obviously didn't read the second paragraph where I mentioned the much higher rate of snowfall in the area where the lost squadron was found.
Oh I certainly did. I've noticed you pull this trick several times now.
You play back a pile of crap you've read on the creation web site that we've all seen a million times and add in a tiny part of the rebuttal to appear fair. In fact the full rebuttal tells you that you shouldn't be churning out this crap at all - it's all proven false.
Is this all you've got? Crap from creationist web sites? Where's the real science?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1274 by CRR, posted 07-08-2017 6:25 AM CRR has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024