EvC Forum: Is the criticism justifiable?

Email This Thread

Newer Topic | Older Topic

Author

Topic: Is the criticism justifiable?

Dirk

Member (Idle past 4044 days)

Posts: 84

Joined: 08-20-2010

Dirk Posts Only

Message 16 of 46 (579222)
09-03-2010 8:49 PM

Reply to: Message 15 by Hyroglyphx
09-03-2010 5:06 PM

Re: Questions and answers to the survey

Just a short comment on question 16 - apart from the fact that I have no clue whatsoever what OLV and OLH are supposed to mean - Neanderthal bones are not fossilized. They are just bones. Buried (usually), yes; but fossilized, no.

This message is a reply to:
	Message 15 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-03-2010 5:06 PM		Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 17 by Theodoric, posted 09-03-2010 10:59 PM		Dirk has not replied

Theodoric

Member

Posts: 9140

From: Northwest, WI, USA

Joined: 08-15-2005

Member Rating: 3.3

Theodoric Posts Only

Message 17 of 46 (579261)
09-03-2010 10:59 PM

Reply to: Message 16 by Dirk
09-03-2010 8:49 PM

Re: Questions and answers to the survey

FYI for those that did not ask to participate in the survey.

From the message that was sent.

OLT stands for Origin of Life Viewpoint. This is to ensure that nobody feels the other side is being given preference

OLH stands for Origin of Life viewpoint Holder

I assume that OLT was meant to be OLV. That there was a typo in the first sentence did nothing to make me feel confidence in this "survey".

Question 16 made me decide not to participate in the "survey"

16 Assuming that it has been proven that it takes millions of years to make a fossil, is it possible for the the reported age of
Neanderthal fossils to be tens of thousands of years?

This question shows an agenda, but more so it shows a lack of knowledge of the subject matter.

I don't know what mignat's agenda is but I will not be playing. Since there is this blatant ignorance in basic concepts I have no confidence in the validity of this "survey" or any results that may be presented.

The full survey.

OLT stands for Origin of Life Viewpoint. This is to ensure that nobody feels the other side is being given preference

OLH stands for Origin of Life viewpoint Holder

Let's do it:

1 Which is your OLV?

2 Should schools teach your OLV only?

3 Do variations in colour, size or shape prove your OLV?

4 Have you ever exaggerated a truth into an extreme in order to silence an opposing OLH?

5 What is the scientific method?

6 Do opposing OLHs make you lose control?

7 Would you expect an apology to be given to a hurt OLH?

8 Do you research your answers to an opposing OLH's questions before giving them?

9 Does your OLV put you above opposing OLHs in any way?

10 Would a cruel answer to an OLH be acceptable to you?

11 Would a rude answer by an OLH be acceptable to you?

12 Is it unreasonable that anyone should oppose your OLV?

13 Are you any less respectful towards opposing OLHs than your fellow OLHs when correcting a mistake?

14 Would you expect an apology if an an opposing OLH found they had hurt you?

15 Do you expect opposing OLHs behave to a higher standard in their postings than your fellow OLHs?

16 Assuming that it has been proven that it takes millions of years to make a fossil, is it possible for the the reported age of

Neanderthal fossils to be tens of thousands of years?

17 Would it concern you at all if you knew you had upset somebody deeply?

18 How would you expect an opposing OLH to prove their OLV?

19 Would you want an apology if somebody hurt you in a posting?

20 Is it the opposing OLHs responsibility to prove themselves right and also to prove you wrong?

21What is you favourite proof of your OLV?

22 Could you see yourself accepting any shared ground with the opposing OLHs, should shared ground be discovered?

23 What would you change if this survey showed the criticism towards your fellow OLHs to be justified and unjustified towards the opposing OLHs?

24 Do you hope this survey will persuade the opposing OLHs that your OLV is the right one?

Which one of these things doesn't go with the other? 16 is a complete departure from the rest of the questions. Makes me leery and suspicious of motives.

Edited by Theodoric, : Spelling

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
	Message 16 by Dirk, posted 09-03-2010 8:49 PM		Dirk has not replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 18 by nwr, posted 09-03-2010 11:29 PM	Theodoric has not replied
	Message 19 by Blue Jay, posted 09-04-2010 12:23 AM	Theodoric has not replied
	Message 25 by bluegenes, posted 09-04-2010 5:27 AM	Theodoric has not replied
	Message 28 by mignat, posted 09-04-2010 10:56 AM	Theodoric has not replied
	Message 31 by mignat, posted 09-04-2010 11:56 AM	Theodoric has not replied

nwr

Member

Posts: 6409

From: Geneva, Illinois

Joined: 08-08-2005

Member Rating: 5.3

nwr Posts Only

Message 18 of 46 (579269)
09-03-2010 11:29 PM

Reply to: Message 17 by Theodoric
09-03-2010 10:59 PM

Re: Questions and answers to the survey

Thanks for posting that. I chose not to participate, because I was a bit skeptical about the whole premise of the survey. Based on the posted questions, it seems that my skepticism was warranted.

I have seen more heated debates over whether there are infinite sets (in mathematics), or over whether 0.999... is equal to 1. The level of negativity is reasonably well controlled here due to the moderation and to the forum rules of debate. So the thread title question "Is the criticism justifiable?" seemed a bit forced.

Some of those questions are just weird.

This message is a reply to:
	Message 17 by Theodoric, posted 09-03-2010 10:59 PM		Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 20 by crashfrog, posted 09-04-2010 12:26 AM	nwr has replied
	Message 33 by mignat, posted 09-04-2010 12:02 PM	nwr has seen this message but not replied

Blue Jay

Member (Idle past 2718 days)

Posts: 2843

From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts

Joined: 02-04-2008

Blue Jay Posts Only

Message 19 of 46 (579275)
09-04-2010 12:23 AM

Reply to: Message 17 by Theodoric
09-03-2010 10:59 PM

Re: Questions and answers to the survey

Hi, Theodoric.

I agree with your assessment.

It's pretty obvious to me that Mignat doesn't have much (if any) experience in conducting surveys, and isn't particularly familiar with the subject matter.

This is the question that bothered me the most:

quote:
23 What would you change if this survey showed the criticism towards your fellow OLHs to be justified and unjustified towards the opposing OLHs?

This survey is simply not set up to be able to show which criticisms are justified and which are not. It bothers me that Mignat apparently thinks it is.

Edited by Bluejay, : removed a superfluous "but"

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)

Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
	Message 17 by Theodoric, posted 09-03-2010 10:59 PM		Theodoric has not replied

crashfrog

Member (Idle past 1487 days)

Posts: 19762

From: Silver Spring, MD

Joined: 03-20-2003

crashfrog Posts Only

Message 20 of 46 (579276)
09-04-2010 12:26 AM

Reply to: Message 18 by nwr
09-03-2010 11:29 PM

Re: Questions and answers to the survey

I have seen more heated debates over whether there are infinite sets (in mathematics), or over whether 0.999... is equal to 1.

Aren't there proofs for both of those? Seems like those should be short debates.

This message is a reply to:
	Message 18 by nwr, posted 09-03-2010 11:29 PM		nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 21 by nwr, posted 09-04-2010 1:35 AM		crashfrog has not replied

nwr

Member

Posts: 6409

From: Geneva, Illinois

Joined: 08-08-2005

Member Rating: 5.3

nwr Posts Only

Message 21 of 46 (579285)
09-04-2010 1:35 AM

Reply to: Message 20 by crashfrog
09-04-2010 12:26 AM

Re: Questions and answers to the survey

crashfrog writes:
Aren't there proofs for both of those? Seems like those should be short debates.

Proofs depends on axioms and definitions. The disagreement is with the axioms and definitions used.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. The questions are raised by non-mathematicians who think that they know better than mathematicians.

This message is a reply to:
	Message 20 by crashfrog, posted 09-04-2010 12:26 AM		crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 22 by Adminnemooseus, posted 09-04-2010 1:42 AM		nwr has seen this message but not replied

Adminnemooseus

Administrator

Posts: 3974

Joined: 09-26-2002

Adminnemooseus Posts Only

Message 22 of 46 (579287)
09-04-2010 1:42 AM

Reply to: Message 21 by nwr
09-04-2010 1:35 AM

Off-topic alert

Things may be looking bad, but that's no excuse to shoot off on a different topic.

Adminnemooseus

This message is a reply to:
	Message 21 by nwr, posted 09-04-2010 1:35 AM		nwr has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 23 by xongsmith, posted 09-04-2010 2:18 AM		Adminnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

xongsmith

Member

Posts: 2587

From: massachusetts US

Joined: 01-01-2009

Member Rating: 6.4

xongsmith Posts Only

(1)

Message 23 of 46 (579289)
09-04-2010 2:18 AM

Reply to: Message 22 by Adminnemooseus
09-04-2010 1:42 AM

Re: Off-topic

Actually it was a good analogy.....sort of....

The idea that reams & reams of paper have been sacrificed to such a fine point as 0.999999999999999999.... is indeed indicative the ability of the human mind to find ways to waste time.

We are damn good at it.

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
	Message 22 by Adminnemooseus, posted 09-04-2010 1:42 AM		Adminnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

Dr Adequate

Member (Idle past 304 days)

Posts: 16113

Joined: 07-20-2006

Dr Adequate Posts Only

Message 24 of 46 (579294)
09-04-2010 3:42 AM

Reply to: Message 1 by mignat
09-02-2010 6:16 PM

Like others on this thread, I feel that many of your questions are ill-posed from a scientific standpoint.

I also feel that your questions are ill-posed from a sociological standpoint. Some of the people whom I disagree with are jerks raving at me about how I'm an evil tool of Satan, and some of them are intelligent sincere people asking intelligent sincere questions. I do not have the same view of both.

This message is a reply to:
	Message 1 by mignat, posted 09-02-2010 6:16 PM		mignat has not replied

bluegenes

Member (Idle past 2497 days)

Posts: 3119

From: U.K.

Joined: 01-24-2007

bluegenes Posts Only

Message 25 of 46 (579307)
09-04-2010 5:27 AM

Reply to: Message 17 by Theodoric
09-03-2010 10:59 PM

Re: Questions and answers to the survey

survey maker writes:

OLT stands for Origin of Life Viewpoint. This is to ensure that nobody feels the other side is being given preference
OLH stands for Origin of Life viewpoint Holder

1 Which is your OLV?

Naturalistic abiogenesis/ chemical evolution.

2 Should schools teach your OLV only?

In science classes? Yes, but OOL isn't really school level beyond mentioning hypotheses.

3 Do variations in colour, size or shape prove your OLV?

?????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!WTF?

IMO, the survey maker isn't qualified to make the survey (and I'm being polite here).

This message is a reply to:
	Message 17 by Theodoric, posted 09-03-2010 10:59 PM		Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 30 by mignat, posted 09-04-2010 11:00 AM		bluegenes has replied

mignat

Junior Member (Idle past 4959 days)

Posts: 11

Joined: 09-02-2010

mignat Posts Only

Message 26 of 46 (579359)
09-04-2010 10:42 AM

Reply to: Message 15 by Hyroglyphx
09-03-2010 5:06 PM

Re: Questions and answers to the survey

OLT stands for Origin of Life Viewpoint. This is to ensure that nobody feels the other side is being given preference

OLH stands for Origin of Life viewpoint Holder

It says that at the top of the survey. I checked then cut and pasted.

This message is a reply to:
	Message 15 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-03-2010 5:06 PM		Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 27 by nwr, posted 09-04-2010 10:46 AM		mignat has replied

nwr

Member

Posts: 6409

From: Geneva, Illinois

Joined: 08-08-2005

Member Rating: 5.3

nwr Posts Only

Message 27 of 46 (579360)
09-04-2010 10:46 AM

Reply to: Message 26 by mignat
09-04-2010 10:42 AM

Re: Questions and answers to the survey

mignat writes:
OLT stands for Origin of Life Viewpoint.

As far as I can tell, you define OLT but never actually use it.

You do use OLV a lot, but never actually define it.

This message is a reply to:
	Message 26 by mignat, posted 09-04-2010 10:42 AM		mignat has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 29 by mignat, posted 09-04-2010 10:57 AM		nwr has seen this message but not replied

mignat

Junior Member (Idle past 4959 days)

Posts: 11

Joined: 09-02-2010

mignat Posts Only

Message 28 of 46 (579362)
09-04-2010 10:56 AM

Reply to: Message 17 by Theodoric
09-03-2010 10:59 PM

Re: Questions and answers to the survey

I've seen typos in many publications but I don't go spreading suspicions about the integrity of the author. It's just a typo. Thank you for pointing it out. You misunderstood Q16 and have no idea of why I put it so please don't sabotage it.