Gay Rights in Ireland

aren't we moving way too far away from "Gay Rights in Ireland?"

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Sorry. I was commenting on your criticism of Ireland's procedures for determining what constitutes human rights.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

I realized that so let me see if I can answer within the context of this thread.IMHO most movement to define human rights will come from a very small group, often an individual. They (the newly defined rights) should lead to an increase in individual freedom.The big job is how to best market those rights?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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IMHO most movement to define human rights will come from a very small group, often an individual.

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Well, yes, most ideas, big and small, good and bad, always start with one person who comes up with that idea first, and then proceeds through small groups, to large groups, and then the (nearly) entire population as the idea spreads and is accepted by most people.The concept that ideas should be imposed on the majority by a small self-designated vanguard implementing the Dictatorship of the Proletariat is repugnant to me, even when I like the ideas being implemented.-

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They (the newly defined rights) should lead to an increase in individual freedom.

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That is a nice opinion, and certainly one that I share, but not necessarily shared by others, and not necessarily shared by the majority of others. If we are going to impose the ideals of a minority on the majority, should we choose your ideals, my ideals, Lenin's, Pol Pot's?-To bring this back to topic:

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The big job is how to best market those rights?

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The Irish are doing just that in the only sensible manner that is consistent with a functioning democratic society. They are discussing these matters in open debate, making their collective decision known through the ballot, and, even after this election is over, will continue to discuss and take action on this matter. I honesty don't know of any better way to do this.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

Nor do I have anything against discussing the issues. In fact, I believe that's necessary. How do you get from a definition of human rights being those that increase individual freedom to the ideals of minority?This is why I was worried this would lead us off topic.Please, let's stick to the topic. And that's great. I was not criticising what they are doing. It's a different situation than what exists in the US. All I was doing was contrasting the methods used here, and stating that popularity of a postition should not be the basis for determining what rights a human has.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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It's a different situation than what exists in the US.

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The US, indeed, is a very different position. It is not a democracy, and, in fact, the National Government was designed to be not very democratic. What democracy that did traditionally exist was at the state and/or local level, and these have been eroded as federal power has encroached into the states' affairs, and the central state governments into local affairs. What is more, the American people's basic instincts are not very democratic to begin with. It is, indeed, informative to compare how the US has handled these sorts of human rights issues with the present Irish referendum.-

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All I was doing was...stating that popularity of a postition should not be the basis for determining what rights a human has.

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I agree, if by "popularity" you mean whoever holds the current bare majority. Such a determination can only be legitimately made on the basis of consensus, but elections are an important part of what constitutes a consensus. It appears to me that the Irish are in the process of determining what the consensus actually is.Just as the Americans are currently in the process of forming a consensus that gays should be welcomed as equal members of society, the activities of the religious right notwithstanding. But, as in almost all examples of increasing democracy and rights, this consensus will not happen overnight -- it is going to take more time to get to the point that gay marriages are legalized. That is the way these things work -- those that support this issue have a lot more work to do.Unfortunately, unlike the Irish, Americans do not have a very effective way to make the consensus known and to have it implemented into legislation.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

Can we take this to a new thread. If you agree I can spin off your last message as the start of a new thread.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I could be wrong, but I don't believe that the anti-gay rights movement thinks in terms of freedom. For the most part, they seem to be kind enough not to insult our intelligence by suggesting that defining marriage as "between a man and a woman" will increase individual freedom.Regardless, that the majority cannot recognize the importance of freedom is exactly why some issues are best not left to referendum.

I must be misreading the OP. It seems to me that the topic is about the current political debate in Ireland about whether the state should recognize same-sex marriages. The quoted article, by my interpretation, is saying that there are several parties, who presumably represent a certain portion of the Irish public, is not in favor of such recognition in the Irish constitution, and is refusing to send the issue to the public in a referendum. There are several parties, presumably representing another portion of the Irish population, who are in favor of such constitutional recognition, and who have pledged to continue their efforts to bring this issue before the public as a referendum.I interpreted your initial remarks (and I now have doubts that I have interpreted them correctly) to imply that you do not feel that these are the proper procedures to handle this issue.I am responding that, in my view, this is the only way that such an issue can be handled in a society that claims to be democratic.I don't see how our exchanges could be any more on topic.At any rate, I don't believe I have anything more to say on this matter, and I certainly don't think I have an entire thread's worth of discussion on this, so I don't think a new thread would be in order. Especially since no one else has indicated much interest in this.Added by edit:Oops. I see that Funkaloyd has just responded, so there may be some interest after all. Since his last sentence is completely and utterly wrong, for reasons involving fundamental political and philosophical reasons (and possibly due to a complete misunderstanding of the history and real-life workings of the US system), a new thread might be in order. I'll leave it to your judgement. But I will say no more in this thread, since, as I now see your point, this will veer in general political philosophy instead of the OP topic.This message has been edited by Chiroptera, 27-Jan-2006 12:14 AM

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

Heh, bring it on.

here's hoping it goes through RH.However as an ex-'Pat' (scuse the pun)I can see hwat'll happen, the church and the right wingers will turn it in to a purely 'gay' issue, and therefore bring out the worst in the voters ro achieve their aims. of course these voters will easily forget that they are voting against their sister/brother/cousin/friend who is a single parent or 'alternative' family for other reasons.shame.
the capability for bigotry in the irish people disappoints me every time I go back to visit.
and the capability of the goverment to fool the people continues to shock..

Maybe I spoke too loudly, too quickly....

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

Funnily enough, I don't think that'll happen.No one really seems to care about the whole gay marraige thing over here. As far as I can tell, it's more about single parents and non-married couples - the majority of the Oireachtas think they shouldn't send it to a referendum because they don't think it'd be ratified, not because they're anti-gay. Come to think of it, I've yet to see any kind of gay-bashing coming from any Irish political source.The big problem with voting in Ireland is that people keep voting for a particular party even though said party has been shown to be corrupt/moronic/bad decision makers/whatever. It's like "I've voted Fianna Fail all my life and thats the way I'm always going to vote!" It's bloody irresponsible.But, you know, little steps. If there are TDs from 3 separate parties coming out and saying that it's not right and it should go to a referendum, that's a good start - it's indicative of what a part of the Irish population think, and I hope that part will get bigger as time goes on. It may be that in a few years the Oireachtas will decide that such a referendum will go through and will hold one then.

Isn't it scary that a member of our military doesn't know this?Somehow in my naievite I thought that people in the military would be more "into" the US governement and be required to learn the basics of how it works.

More like pragmatic. The political historians may differ over who laid the seeds which made the unprecedented econonic boom we have witnessed this last 15 yeara - all the voting public knows is that Fianna Fail have presided over most of it - steering (in so far as they can have steered it) a successful course. "Its the economy stoopid" Any one who lived in the years prior to this period remembers what a miserable place it was.If it ain't broke don't fix it. Its not like there is much in the way of percieved choice anyway.Remember too with regard to referenda. If the government wants us to vote it in, they are prepared to bully, threaten, cajole and if that doesn't work then they'll polish it up, remove the objectionable frills and present it again to us a few short months laterGay rights doesn't strike me as something any Fianna Fail government would see as beneficial to retention of power. Why risk it?