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Author Topic:   Manna from Heaven. What the Grossness? (Ex. 16)
IrishRockhound
Member (Idle past 4436 days)
Posts: 569
From: Ireland
Joined: 05-19-2003


Message 31 of 79 (437442)
11-30-2007 4:05 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by jaywill
11-29-2007 1:50 AM


Re: On manna in the Bible.
quote:
Perhaps you feel that the discourse of Christ on Him being the true bread from heaven is not relevant. If so, I don't think I can help you.
But just in case you missed it, much of my discourse was enfluenced by these words and more from the sixth chapter of John:
"Jesus therefore said to them, truly, truly, I say to you, Moses has not given you the bread out of heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world ... I am the bread of life ..."
Now if you feel that these words of Jesus are irrelevant to the topic of the "what does the Bible really mean" in Exodus concerning manna, then I don't think I can help you.
We're talking about what manna could have been, see the verses quoted from the OP:
Exodus 16:13-31*
13”; and in the morning dew lay round about the camp.
14 And when the dew had gone up, there was on the face of the wilderness a ne, ake-like thing, ne as hoarfrost on the groud.
15 When the people of Israel saw it, they said to one another, "It is manna." For they did not know what it was. And Moses said to them "It is bread which the Lord has given you to eat.
16 This is what the Lord has commanded: 'Gather of it, every man of you, as much as he can eat; you shall take an omer apiece, according to the number of the persons whom each of you has in his tent.'"
17 And the people of Israel did so; they gathered, some more, some less.
18 But when they measured it with an omer, he that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack; each gathered according to what he could eat.
19 And Moses said to them, "Let no man leave any of it till the morning."
20 But they did not listen to Moses; some left part of it till morning, and it bred worms and became foul; and Moses was angry with them.
21 Morning by morning they gathered it, each as much as he could eat; but when the sun grew hot, it melted.
...
31 Now the house of Israel called its name manna; it was like coriander seed, white, and the taste of it was like wafers made with honey. (Revised Standard Version)
These are the Exodus verses, not the New Testament you quoted. In any case your verses there do not mention manna, just bread. I'm still not seeing the manna-bread-Christ connection except as a shoehorning by you.
And excuse me? You can't 'help' me? We're talking about a couple of bible verses, jaywill, not my particular personal spirituality.
quote:
It sounds to me that you do not realize the the whole Bible has Christ and His salvation as its underlying major theme.
It may not sound profound to you. But your reaction above sounds particularly obtruse and dull to me. That is because you seemed to not have grasped the there was forethought and foreknowledge on the part of God when He performed certain acts.
No offence, but when I read the bible, i.e. the supposed word of your god, he comes off as being a petty and vindictive child most of the time. He never once seemed like the planning type. So unless you're prepared to start another thread on biblical prophesy (and we all know that horse has been beaten to death and then some) I'd suggest you leave this out of the discussion.
quote:
The entire line of God sending a savior Moses, the Passover lamb, the crossing of the Red Sea, the traveling through the desert to the good land, the miracles and lessons of the wilderness stay have relevance to God's overall plan of salvation.
I am sorry that you seem not to grasp even a glimmer of this. But just in case you missed it, the Apostles apparently did not. Peter, Paul, and John assure us that God had Christ's salvation on His mind in many many historical acts found in the Old Testament.
What does this have to do with the Exodus verses? And again, I can grasp the idea fairly readily. I just don't think it adds up. The verses in Exodus just don't read that way, and unless you demonstrate it while referring to the verses in Exodus, I shall remain skeptical.
quote:
I admit that I am verbose. I admit that I am thrilled to ramble on and on about types and shadows of the Old Testament pointing to Christ. I write here not only for your sake but for the sake of others who might pick up some helpful explanations related to the discussion.
Some of us choose not to dumb down the Bible for the dull and even less for those who mock.
Rambling on is no way to enter into a debate, jaywill. From all I can gather from your rambling, you are espousing a particular interpretation that does not fit the Exodus verses. You should not be writing for me or anyone else. You should be trying to support your interpretation by referring to the verses and pointing out why and where 'manna' is metaphorically some guy who was born long after the events in Exodus occurred.
quote:
It may be my personal belief. But it is also related to the proper interpretation of the manna. Anything you eat enters into you and becomes part of you.
Again you are only revealing you dullness in grasping some major spiritual themes in the Bible. Sorry, the Bible is a spiritual book in case you didn't notice.
I tried to take you back to Genesis to show you that even the tree of life as food has tremendous significance to divine life entering the vessel of man's being.
I tried to relate the basic principles of Adam's creation to the ongoing principles of Israel's being fed by God by strange "manna" from heaven. I'm sorry that you see no relationship with the ongoing theme of God wanting to put something heavenely or divine INTO man's being.
But at no point have you shown that the manna referenced in Exodus is meant to be taken as meaning the body of Jesus Christ. That is the point I am trying to get across here. I'll give you all that, that your god wants people to...er... eat his divine essence or whatever. But again, there is no indication that these verses should be connected to Jesus, other than the New Testament thingy about him also being god (and thus being eaten by association).
quote:
That is where you are dead wrong. We believers interpret the Bible with the Bible and by the Bible.
You see no overall scheme and no overall plan of salvation. That is your problem. You want me to take you seriously? Why do you not take seriously a man who authored 13 or so books of the Bible, Paul when he helps the Christians to understand by writing...
But he lived hundreds of years after the Exodus, and he was writing about the same verses! That was his interpretation, jaywill, his opinion. You just agree with it, and you are using his opinion to try to support yours. That just doesn't work.
Do not reference my spirituality anymore. It is not relevent, and I will take it as a personal attack if you do because I will not discuss my particular religion here. My 'overall plan of salvation' has nothing to do with the manna in Exodus.
quote:
The question I have is do you have a "spritual" interest? I see some talk here about what the manna was which is good to tickle the curious mind. I thought some participants might want to get the "spiritual" significance of these matters. And I bet some do if you the mockers.
You are preaching, and you are not interested in a debate here. Anyone interested in a debate about a particular subject will not, repeat not, bring the faith of the other debators into the discussion. You are only interested in prosthelytising, whether to me or anyone who might be reading this thread. You find me dull? I find you dishonest.
I say again; there is nothing in the Exodus verses to suggest that they should be taken to mean anything except what they say. If you want to believe that the manna referenced there is supposed to mean the body of Christ or whatever, that's fine, but the verses do not support it and quoting bible passages written long after Exodus by a guy who agrees with you is not going to help your case.
I will wait to see your next reply, and then decide if I should leave this thread.
IRH

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by jaywill, posted 11-29-2007 1:50 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 12-01-2007 1:09 PM IrishRockhound has not replied
 Message 33 by jaywill, posted 12-02-2007 2:58 AM IrishRockhound has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 32 of 79 (437776)
12-01-2007 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by IrishRockhound
11-30-2007 4:05 AM


Re: On manna in the Bible.
Before you go.
Manna shows up in several stories but in each case it is simply one of the plot devices used to make different points. The Manna mentioned in Exodus is one such example. The manna itself is not very important but is meant as one of the ways to get to the point, which in this case is that the Sabbath rules needed to be enforced. See Message 6.
In Numbers Manna is again used as a way to get to the message "Appreciate what you have been given". See Message 11.
In Joshua we again see manna used as a plot device, in this case it stops showing up once they have access to true grains for bread making. See Message 13.
So manna is used through the Bible stories but only as a plot device to help illustrate some other point.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by IrishRockhound, posted 11-30-2007 4:05 AM IrishRockhound has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by jaywill, posted 12-05-2007 6:12 AM jar has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 33 of 79 (437937)
12-02-2007 2:58 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by IrishRockhound
11-30-2007 4:05 AM


Chemicals per se?, I don't know.
We're talking about what manna could have been, see the verses quoted from the OP:
If all you are interested in is the chemical composition of the manna I have nothing to say, except that I don't know exactly what that manna was. This is an open forum and my interest is the spiritual and theological aspects of the record.
Ignore me and discuss with some of the other posters whose interests are the same as yours. That's what I'd suggest.
Other participants may be interested in my discussion as others are interested in yours.
These are the Exodus verses, not the New Testament you quoted. In any case your verses there do not mention manna, just bread. I'm still not seeing the manna-bread-Christ connection except as a shoehorning by you.
I realize that those are Exodus verses. Theologically, it is important to me what the Bible (whole Bible) really means about those verses.
Exodus certainly has a historical and theological connection with Genesis, Leviticus and the other books of the Old Testament as well as the New Testament gospels. The desire to make it a "stand alone" and disconnected book is perhaps your need, not mine.
As for "shoehorning" what you could be noticing is actually the degree of closedness of your own mind such that introducing these connections seems to you to be "shoehorning".
From my perspective limiting the discussion to the chemical composition of the manna is kind of shoehorning a cynical disregard for other biblical passages into your interpretation of the book of Exodus. It is like saying "I don't care" about certain important theological themes of the Bible.
And excuse me? You can't 'help' me? We're talking about a couple of bible verses, jaywill, not my particular personal spirituality.
"What the Bible really means" about the manna is related to spiritual aspects of human life. If you find such discussion as meddling in your personal affairs, ignore me.
I learned to let others speak to me about spiritual themes of the Bible's meaning because I dropped a certain attitude I previously held, which was "I'm just so perfect, you see, don't adjust me in any way spiritual. I don't need any help." For awhile this attidude kept me from wanting to hear certain kinds of analyses of the Bible.
No offence, but when I read the bible, i.e. the supposed word of your god, he comes off as being a petty and vindictive child most of the time. He never once seemed like the planning type. So unless you're prepared to start another thread on biblical prophesy (and we all know that horse has been beaten to death and then some) I'd suggest you leave this out of the discussion.
Your contempt for my God is now showing. And I think this is probably more of the obstacle to understanding what I am writing more than anything else.
Let's ignore each other. We're through. Maybe someone out there can help you with the chemical composition of manna. I'll be talking to those interested in spritual themes to a spiritual book, or at least open minded enough to consider them.
Its a public forum.
Goodbye.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by IrishRockhound, posted 11-30-2007 4:05 AM IrishRockhound has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by jaywill, posted 12-02-2007 3:15 AM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 34 of 79 (437939)
12-02-2007 3:15 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by jaywill
12-02-2007 2:58 AM


Re: Chemicals per se?, I don't know.
Above someone wrote:
He never once seemed like the planning type.
Well, God told Abraham that He would not allow his discendents to enter into the land of Canaan until another 400 years. That was because the Amorites were not yet bad enough to merit judgment. I believe this is in chapter 15 of Genesis.
Then being merciful as He is He added another 40 years to that, of the Hebrew's wandering in the desert before entry.
No planning? Maybe we're not reading the same book.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by jaywill, posted 12-02-2007 2:58 AM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 35 of 79 (438529)
12-05-2007 6:12 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by jar
12-01-2007 1:09 PM


Re: On manna in the Bible.
jar writes:
So manna is used through the Bible stories but only as a plot device to help illustrate some other point.
I think the manna had greater significance than only to remind the Hebrews to keep Sabbath. Manna was placed into the ark with Aaron's rod that budded and the tablets of the testimony of the law. That seems to indicate its importance. God wanted the people to remember this manna in its own right.
There are a lot of things which God could have told Moses to place in the ark of the covenant. Beside the law, which was no doubt the most significant thing, there were only two other items. These were Aaron's budding rod and a golden pot (Comp. Heb.9:3-4) of the manna.
And Moses said, This is what Jehovah has commanded, Let an omerful of it be kept throughout your generations, that they may see the bread which I fed you in the wilderness, when I brought you out from the land of Egypt.
And Moses said to Aaron, Take a pot, and put an omerful of manna in it, and place it before Jehovah, to be kept throughout your generations. As Jehovah commanded Moses, so Aaron placed it before the testimony to be kept. (Exo. 16:32-34)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 12-01-2007 1:09 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by jar, posted 12-05-2007 9:50 AM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 36 of 79 (438531)
12-05-2007 6:40 AM


Manna Pointing to Christ
The characteristics of manna portray the characteristics of Christ as the heavenly "food" of God's people.
1.) Manna was fine (v. 14), indicating that the Messiah is even and balanced. Christ is not rough or course but fine.
2.) The manna was small indicating that the Christ is available and approachable. He is easy to take in for spiritual nourishment. Christ is near and as close as the words in one's mouth. He is great in significance but small enough for God's people to take into their hearts.
3.) The manna was round (v.14). Roundness signifies that Christ is eternal. So He is small enough to "eat" yet He is eternal in His divinity.
4.) The roundness of the manna also indicates that the Messiah Christ is perfect and full, without shortage or defect.
5.) The manna was white (v.31), indicating that Christ is clean and pure without mixture.
6.) The manna is like frost (v.31) signifying that Christ refreshes and cools. He is heavenly food that cools the feverish Adamic nature down. His coolness also kills negative things within us as frost kills germs.
7.) The manna was like coriander seed. This signifies that when Christ enters into man He is full of life and grows. He is a seed of divine life which can grow and spread and multiply within man.
8.) The coriander seed needed to be ground between two millstones or beat with mortar, then boiled in a pot (See Num. 11:8)
This represents the need for God's people to take Christ into them in all kinds of difficult situations and circumstances. Trials and troubles we must be excercised to go against our lazy natures and take Christ in with some deliberatness in our daily lives.
9.) The manna was like bdellium in appearance (Num. 11:7), indicating the brightness and transparency of Christ. He makes us bright with light within and real, honest, and transparent before man, like He is.
10.) In taste the manna was cakes of baked oil (Num. 11:8), signifying the fragrance of the Holy Spirit in the taste of Christ the Messiah.
11.) The manna was also discribed in taste as like honey (v.31). signifying the sweetness of Christ.
12.) The manna was good for making cakes (Num. 11:8), indicating that Christ is like a fine cake good for nourishment.
The manna therefore points to the incarnation of God as a man in Jesus Christ the Messiah and Savior of the world.
Christ is perfect and eternal. He is small enough to "eat". Christ cools us down into a inner sense of peace, kills germs within us, multiplies and grows within us, and is sweet to the seeking heart. We must take Him into us daily and in all kinds of daily troublesome situations we take Him with deliberateness and faithfulness.
This manna points to man taking into his being the processed and prepared God as the incarnated Son of God, the Hebrew's Messiah and the Savior of the world.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 37 of 79 (438547)
12-05-2007 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by jaywill
12-05-2007 6:12 AM


Re: On manna in the Bible.
That's fine, you are of course free to believe anything you want. However if you actually read the stories that is exactly how it is used, as a plot device. It's not symbolic of Jesus but just a bread substitute to be abandoned as soon as they got where they could buy or steal grain.
By the way, trying to use Hebrews to support Exodus is just plain silly. It's also silly because if you actually read Hebrews you will find the author (whoever that really was), is comparing an earthly function to a heavenly one. The things being mentioned are all only normal earthly stuff, socially significant but that's it. It's also a hodgepodge of myth and folk lore. It is not talking about the events themselves but about the layout of a tabernacle from a much later date and tradition. It also, as so often happens in folktales, been changed and exaggerated. When you look at the passage in Exodus it is just a pot, but by Hebrews it is a Golden Pot and kept in the Ark.
That's how folktales develop.

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by jaywill, posted 12-05-2007 6:12 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by IamJoseph, posted 12-06-2007 8:15 AM jar has replied
 Message 45 by jaywill, posted 12-06-2007 5:30 PM jar has replied
 Message 46 by jaywill, posted 12-06-2007 5:38 PM jar has replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 38 of 79 (438773)
12-06-2007 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jon
11-03-2007 8:29 PM


quote:
A couple important properties to keep in mind:
1) It easily attracts worms;
Your conclusion was hasty. As the 'bread' did not rot on the Saturday - it means it does not attract worms, but appears to follow the exact words of Moses in his detail of its process. Also, by this time, the Israelites were either given the sabaath law, or were being tested of its eminant giving.
Also, as per its texts, I cannot be too hasty in concluding this story is totally mythical. Because it does not infringe any historical or logical factors otherwsie. The text says this was an uncharted desert, where food and water are major issues - it is barren; here, the text does not contain any dis-history by including any incorrect foods or items of its spacetime, while it correctly lists the diets of the ancient egyptians - how the Israelites yearned for garlic, fish and melons [no tomatoes here!] of Egypt; the correct distances and names of cities before entering the desert - including names of cities [Ramesey, Pithom and Goshen]; the King's Highway [coastal route] which was not taken; the collecting of Joseph's embalmed remains; the correct divisions of the tribes and a scientific cencus with age and gender sub-totals; and numerous ancient nations encountered. This part is not mythology.

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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 39 of 79 (438774)
12-06-2007 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by jar
12-05-2007 9:50 AM


Re: On manna in the Bible.
quote:
It is not talking about the events themselves but about the layout of a tabernacle from a much later date and tradition.
I'm intrigued here: what is this 'later date' proof or evidence?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by jar, posted 12-05-2007 9:50 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by jar, posted 12-06-2007 9:27 AM IamJoseph has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 40 of 79 (438779)
12-06-2007 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by IamJoseph
12-06-2007 8:15 AM


Re: On manna in the Bible.
There is no tabernacle in Exodus 16. The Hebrew's reference to a tabernacle is anachronism, where the author of Hebrew's whoever that was, mixed in Moshe and the Ark and a much later Tabernacle and changed the pot to gold, just to make his point about comparing earthy to spiritual worlds.

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

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 Message 39 by IamJoseph, posted 12-06-2007 8:15 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 41 of 79 (438823)
12-06-2007 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by jar
12-06-2007 9:27 AM


Re: On manna in the Bible.
Where do you get your info on concluding such - or is it your own personal assessment, and if so - what is it based on?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by jar, posted 12-06-2007 9:27 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 42 of 79 (438826)
12-06-2007 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by IamJoseph
12-06-2007 11:41 AM


Re: On manna in the Bible.
I read the passages. LOL

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by IamJoseph, posted 12-06-2007 11:41 AM IamJoseph has replied

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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 43 of 79 (438840)
12-06-2007 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by jar
12-06-2007 11:47 AM


Re: On manna in the Bible.
I'm surprised, and its a weak arguement.
I see no motive for a report like a tabernacle building as being made up. Whatever for? This related to the situation in its context - where would the people sleep when travelling in a desert? It would be a gltich if this issue was not attended to in the narratives. As well, that it is a rememberence fastival observed each year from down the ages - it has autheticity. It is only a mark of veracity that such minute items are focused on with the OT - it means there is nothing substantial to point at.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 12-06-2007 11:47 AM jar has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 44 of 79 (438859)
12-06-2007 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by IamJoseph
12-06-2007 12:08 PM


Re: On manna in the Bible.
I see no motive for a report like a tabernacle building as being made up.
No one said it was made up. What was said was that in the story in Hebrew's the author took parts from several periods and traditions and mixed them together along with exaggeration to illustrate a symbolic point he wanted to express.

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 45 of 79 (438944)
12-06-2007 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by jar
12-05-2007 9:50 AM


Re: On manna in the Bible.
By the way, trying to use Hebrews to support Exodus is just plain silly. It's also silly because if you actually read Hebrews you will find the author (whoever that really was), is comparing an earthly function to a heavenly one. The things being mentioned are all only normal earthly stuff, socially significant but that's it. It's also a hodgepodge of myth and folk lore. It is not talking about the events themselves but about the layout of a tabernacle from a much later date and tradition. It also, as so often happens in folktales, been changed and exaggerated. When you look at the passage in Exodus it is just a pot, but by Hebrews it is a Golden Pot and kept in the Ark.
That's how folktales develop.
This does not necessarily HAVE to follow that myth is in the making. I agree and knew beforehand, that I have no reference to a "gold" pot, but just a pot, in the Old Testament.
That Hebrews adds a detail that we previously did not know of does not automatically mean myth is involved.
Even in the Old Testament books you could probably find some further details mentioned about events originally told elsewhere. This doesn't mean myth had to be in the making.
You know how deeply the Jews reverenced the ark of the covenant. That they desired that the pot be of gold is not at all surprising. It was of acacia wood overlaid with gold.
Do you think they were more likely to have used a tin pot or a bronze, silver, or wooden pot? Why?
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by jar, posted 12-05-2007 9:50 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by jar, posted 12-06-2007 5:40 PM jaywill has replied

  
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