Message 31 of 97 (633686) 09-15-2011 1:41 PM

Reply to: Message 29 by Rahvin 09-15-2011 1:13 PM

Excellent points.

However, I think the data does point to a general trend of attrition. Many within the church recognize that as children move out of the home, they are more likely to lose the religion of their upbringing. Here's some commentary on that:

http://townhall.com/...ts_need_to_keep_their_faith/page/full

Very true. Can't argue that.

However, if someone makes the claim that Christians stay Christian because they *know* the truth, a declining trend may be used as a counter argument. Unless, of course, you throw in a caveat like "well, no *true* Christians leave the faith".

Working in the Middle East for some three years, I got to know quite a few Muslims very well, and became friends with more than I expected. Some of the best meals I ever ate were picked off of platters with my own hands, and the best hosts I have ever had were there, period. One asked me if I had read the Quran yet. I did, and so he essentially asked me when I would be converting (in a very friendly way). I replied politely that I wouldn't be. He nodded seriously. "Ah yes, you have not yet read the Quran in Arabic!" Conditions, conditions!

I suppose the point is, to a Muslim, no *true* Muslim could convert to Christianity, just as to a hardline evangelical, no *true* Christian could ever leave the faith (whether for some vague Deism or another organized religion). Using growth rates, retention rates, conversions, whatever, as "evidence" of the truth of a particular religion is absurd.

Message 32 of 97 (633687) 09-15-2011 1:42 PM

Reply to: Message 30 by Theodoric 09-15-2011 1:30 PM

If I asked a Catholic if they were Christian, they'd say "yes." Self-identification is my general rule. Prevents my from falling for a "no true Scotsman" so easily.

Message 33 of 97 (633691) 09-15-2011 1:55 PM

Reply to: Message 31 by Wollysaurus 09-15-2011 1:41 PM

Of course. But you have to remember farther back in the past. We've seen such a Christian decline in the past, many times. Inevitably, it's been followed up by a period of religious revival. The line isn't straight, basically, and I don't have sufficient confidence to suggest that Christianity is likely to become a minority religion in the US any time in the reasonable future.

Nothing more than after-the-fact rationalization for their No-True-Scotsman fallacious reasoning, as we all well know. One would have to wonder, then, how one determines a "true" Christian. A decade ago I would have immediately identified myself as a "true" Christian, and likely anyone who knew me would as well; I felt a certainty in my beliefs at the time and was devoted to my faith. If one cannot tell "true" Christians from "false" Christians except in the event of a conversion away from the faith, the distinction is entirely moot - such retroactive reasoning is nothing more than circular reasoning: "they converted because they weren't "true" Christians; we know they weren't "true" Christians because they converted."

Post-hoc rationalization, as always. If evidence leads to the possibility that your cherished beliefs are false, shift the goalposts slightly so that you can internally dismiss the discomforting information.

Also, yes, middle-eastern food can be quite good. A bit farther off, but have you ever had Ethiopian food? Delicious - there's actually a very good place here in Sacramento, and you reminded me of it because they also eat with their hands, using a scrumptious flatbread that's rather like a cross between sourdough and a pancake in place of implements. Good stuff.

Appeal to popularity - the prevalence of a certain belief is irrelevant to the veracity of the belief. Else, the widespread acceptance of the geocentric model or the flat-Earth model a thousand years ago should have been evidence that the Earth was the flat center of the Universe.

Message 34 of 97 (633802) 09-16-2011 1:48 PM

Christ Converts to Islam

Message 35 of 97 (633803) 09-16-2011 1:58 PM

Reply to: Message 34 by Straggler 09-16-2011 1:48 PM

But of course, a Muslim would shrug and say it is old news. After all, Jesus (Isa) is going to come back, simply to herald the Mahdi.

Message 36 of 97 (633806) 09-16-2011 2:09 PM

Reply to: Message 35 by Wollysaurus 09-16-2011 1:58 PM

Yep those Islamists are a wise old bunch. As evidenced by their status as the most converted to religion....

Message 37 of 97 (633813) 09-16-2011 3:14 PM

Reply to: Message 32 by Rahvin 09-15-2011 1:42 PM

So he must be using a very narrow (re)definition of Christianity, otherwise he would count it as the biggest religion, which it is.

Message 38 of 97 (633815) 09-16-2011 3:30 PM

Reply to: Message 37 by Dr Adequate 09-16-2011 3:14 PM

I just go by self-identification. Mormons self-identify as Christians. Catholics self-identify as Christians. Protestants self-identify as Christians. They're all subdivisions of the broader religion that believes Jesus of Nazareth to be the Son of the Hebrew God who died on a cross in absolution of the world's sins, and rose from the dead some three days later. Excluding a group who believes all that just because they also have a leader with a funny hat, or because they think the story doesn't end there, is like saying dogs aren't vertebrates because they're mammals.

Message 39 of 97 (633892) 09-17-2011 1:14 AM

Reply to: Message 28 by Rahvin 09-15-2011 1:00 PM

It's a good one and deserved the nomination. Im not in any way trying to act or think im smarter than you here, so please don't take offense to me trying to make a few points like others here do.

And thanks for your response here. It's nice to actually read a response that is not condescending. Maybe the one you wrote a little further down is (the persecution comment but i'll take the good with the bad.

Can I address two points you made in your POTM before I comment on your response here?

Exactly. And my Bible tells me that things produce after their own kind, which incidently, we obseve happening every day.

Rahvin, Can you relay this message to Straggler by any chance?

------------------------

Rahvin, I know what I know based on things I see and read. Just like you about our universe. Tho, I assume when it comes from me (a Christian-I know im being persecuted people just dismiss it, but Straggler cites the guiness book of world records and the debate is well, over.

Im actually born-again. I've been a believer for the last twenty years. I know of no Born-again christian converting to islam. Of course some are! Tho I say more muslims are converting over to christianity.

Im not at ALL saying all Catholics are not Christians. Some are and SOME aren't. Some recieve Christ as their personal Savior some just go thru the motions. My point is the PRACTICING Christians/Catholics who follow the whole Bible are NOT converting over to Islam. Why would they? Once you know the truth why leave?

Well, for starters I posted my sources a bunch of times. No one as of yet has posted contrary. Where are all the links/sources saying more Christians are converting over to Islam as opposed to what im claiming?

That's all im saying and Straggler makes a thread about it instead of researching it for himself.

He cited that Islam is the worlds fastest grwing religion. So what. How many times have we heard someone repeat what Richard Dawkins says about where we are born is what we believe? Now tho, that argument is swept under the rug in favor of making a point that is not relevant to the discussion.

Yeah, it's hard to do. The actually numbers can't be known. We do know some tho, and it favors Christianity way more. Im talking conversion and not growth.

Geez really Rahvin? Next time you go to work do a poll of Born-Agains in your workplace, ok?

Im NOT taking what everyone says like you are. Some people just call themselves christians, it doesn't make it so, sorry. Im talking about Bible believing Christians who know the truth. Im talking #1's on the Dawkins scale. Not some feel good legalistic sunday Chistain who calls themselves a Christian. or just happen to grow up in a Christian home.

My own experiences in the last twenty years. The links/sources I provided. Why am I the one doing all the work? Because I claimed it right? Ok, fine, well you can't disporve claims by saying it's not true like everyone here is doing. without actually reading and researching what I posted.

Ok, so you need exact data. How about all the testimoneis from all the Muslims on various sites online, books, videos? Do a simple search and you'll see them all.

If we were debating the TOE would you not recommend I visit a few sites for myself as I do not see apes transitioning into humans today? I'll need some data where I can see it happening. Oh, you say but we are in just a small frame of time in millions of years, ok then. It that the theory? The best possible explanation we have? Great. But you have a hard time believing that more muslims are converting to christianity than the other way around?

But, but, you also said this in your POTM:

Message 40 of 97 (633895) 09-17-2011 1:26 AM

Reply to: Message 39 by Chuck77 09-17-2011 1:14 AM

Maybe you should read about the No True Scotsman Fallacy

We read them. All you posted were anecdotes. No evidence. There is nothing to research.

Even if it is true, how does that make Christianity any more "true" than other religions?

Message 41 of 97 (633897) 09-17-2011 1:31 AM

Reply to: Message 39 by Chuck77 09-17-2011 1:14 AM

OK, so just how exactly is that supposed to contradict evolution?

Oh do please be very specific.

Message 42 of 97 (633899) 09-17-2011 2:07 AM

Reply to: Message 41 by dwise1 09-17-2011 1:31 AM

It doesn't. Did I say it did? Im simply saying we observe what the bible teaches. It was just a side note to Rahvin.

Edited by Chuck77, : No reason given.

Message 43 of 97 (633902) 09-17-2011 2:38 AM

Reply to: Message 42 by Chuck77 09-17-2011 2:07 AM

For that matter, just exactly why do you say that it doesn't?

Message 44 of 97 (633903) 09-17-2011 2:53 AM

Reply to: Message 43 by dwise1 09-17-2011 2:38 AM

I was bringing it up to Rahvin, incidently.

Because he Rahvin said this:

I am aslo pointing out that Christianity says the same thing about what WE believe. Okay?

Why is this a problem for you? Here's a tip, try to wait out what Rahvin might say to my post. If he doesn't bring up your brilliant questions then feel free to ask some more, kk?

Message 45 of 97 (633923) 09-17-2011 5:10 AM

Reply to: Message 39 by Chuck77 09-17-2011 1:14 AM

I sense that you are getting somewhat frustrated here by the reaction to what you have posted. Please try to understand that when people react this way it is not simply because they are making knee-reactions, it's not personal. It's not because of some anti-Christian bias; it's because people think that you are making a flawed argument on the basis of a tiny amount of invalid evidence.

What you have posted so far on this thread;

Message 4 A personal testimony from a single Muslim-to-Christian convert.

This is only one man's testimony, thus it is invalid as evidence in favour of your claim that Muslim-to-Christian conversion is more widespread than the reverse.

Message 11 *You offer to visit Straggler with a Muslim-to-Christian convert. Even if you did this of course, it would be invlaid as evidence that Muslim-to-Christian conversion is more widespread than the reverse, since again, it's only one person. It does nothing to demonstrate the wider trend.

*You quote Joel Rosenburg. Now this article might be worth considering but for two unfortunate facts. Firstly, it offers no evidence. All it gives us is Rosenburg's contention that more Muslims convert to Christianity than vice-versa. It is unaccompanied by actual evidence. You cannot expect us to believe something just because someone says it is true. We didn't accept it just because you said it, so there's no reason to accept it just because someone else says it. Secondly, the article makes a number of false claims, as Dr Adequate has pointed out. That undermines its trustworthiness and makes it valueless as evidence for anything.

*You offer us a link - http://www.salemvoice.org/news117.html - when I click that link, I get an empty blog page. No content. When I try to search the blog for the articles you cite, I get no results.

Message 16 You link to two wiki pages, but neither seems to support your contention.

Er... that's it. That's everything you've posted as evidence.

Can you not see why people are unsatisfied with this? You haven't given us a shred of valid and believable evidence to back up your claim, only opinion and anecdote.

This is probably for two reasons;

1) The other participants in this thread do not have any fixed opinion on how many Muslims convert to Christianity or vice-versa, since the evidence that might back up such a belief does not appear to be available.

2) The other participants are not interested in arguing that more Christians covert to Islam than the reverse, because they understand that at its heart, your argument is merely an Appeal to Popularity, which, as has been mentioned many times, is a logical fallacy.

Here is the only really relevant part of your post;

Right! You don't have the numbers, so you should not be making the claim.

There is nothing else to say.

Mutate and Survive

Edited by Granny Magda, : No reason given.

Edited by Granny Magda, : No reason given.