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Member (Idle past 1425 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Red State vs Blue State -- drawing battlelines? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1425 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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This is pretty much my point - the term "socialism" is used to attack people with decent, human, liberal values of the sort you list (often where a number of those values are to some extent shared by the people supporting the right wing). The intention is to demonise people on the left with reference to the failed attempts at socialism/communism in Russia, China et al. In other words, if you're on the left, you must be socialist and want to steal everyone's property and appropriate it to the state. The range extends from social democracy ...
quote: (Which is what Bernie was advocating (universal healthcare, tuition free college, living minimum wage, etc) and it also applies to what FDR did.) ... to Democratic socialism
quote: and even here "social ownership" is not necessarily "the state" as it could be worker owned cooperatives run democratically by the workers, the key being the type of "socialist economic system" being used:
quote: So we can have socialist market democracy within each blue state without taking over the means of production by the states, merely by advancing the use of worker coops run democratically by the workers within a capitalist framework, and by having social safety nets, from guaranteed living wage to universal healthcare, plus programs designed to enhance peoples lives, like free local (community) college and trade schools and affordable housing and daycare. (see Minnesota) While red states would be free to pursue pure market driven economy and capitalist concentration of wealth at the top with no safety nets for the working poor, the elimination of the middle class and everyone for themselves. (see Wisconsin)
I think that a calm, attentive conversation with people on the other side, is essential to progressing. Both sides need to really understand each other, and see that there are in fact areas of common ground and compromise. And part of understanding is looking to avoid incorrect labels like socialist and fascist - very few on the left are socialist, and I believe very few voting for those on the right are fascist. Indeed. There is a lot of support for universal healthcare and for a living minimum wage across the political lines, as there is for rational gun restrictions and a tax system that does not favor the rich. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Taq Member Posts: 10033 Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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Faith writes: By the time of the depression Christianity had already lost the strength I'm talking about, and it isn't something you could have a "policy" about anyway. If Christians were in any better position than everybody else they would be a major help. And I'm sure they were during the depression anyway, because that's how Christians are. I am going to guess that at no time in history did Christianity have the strength that you are talking about. According to you, you are the only "True Christian" in existence.
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Taq Member Posts: 10033 Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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Faith writes: It wasn't Democrats who ended segregation. As the Democratic party is constituted now, yes it was. It was LBJ who signed the Civli Rights Act into law.
The schools weren't always leftist, but now I think homeschooling is far preferable. We have had public schools for over 100 years now.
I pay taxes for the highways. Public works are not a partisan concern. Public works, by their very definition, are socialist. If you paid for healthcare with your tax dollars, would you be fine with it?
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Taq Member Posts: 10033 Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
Faith writes: Yes there are some socialist programs a conservative also accepts, but I still often wish we could split the country between the socialists and the capitalists, since the two groups ARE roughly divided that way. But also in lots of other ways. What anti-capitalist policies are you talking about?
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frako Member (Idle past 326 days) Posts: 2932 From: slovenija Joined:
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Yea but there are plenty of countries considered socialist and they dont have any large stakes in its economies businesses. I think you will find that the whole country run production is an exception rather then the rule. The main thing about socialism in practice is drawing a line on the minimual standard of living. I might be a conspiracy theorist but i think the CIA tried to equate socialism to communism because of marks.
but i get why its a shade of red though more on the pinkish side Thing is i dont get it these massive cooperation's buy your goverment officials, laugh at your regulations, poison your watter and air. And when someone says guys your doing a lot of damage get huge profits you should pay a larger share, we will use it to heal the people corporation's poison, to feed the people cooperation's pay to little to live on, and to educate them so they dont have to get screwed by cooperation's as much. A bunch of people who would benefit the most from this, and usually dont have to dimes to rub together come out screaming fucking commies leave our poor rich people alone they trickle down on us Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
It wasn't Democrats who ended segregation. No, but the Republicans who ended slavery were the progressives of their time, and the certainly the Civil Rights Act of 1964 is not conservative policy by any current measure. Just what political label would you apply to those Dixiecrats of the 1950s and 60s. Certainly not "liberal". Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I'm not interested in getting into all the side issues. I said simply that I often wish we could split the country because of the polarization that has come to a boiling point with this election. For saying that I got the usual accusation of racism in the form of asking if I want to go back to segregation, that sprt pf accusation being one of the "progressive" tactics that is a major reason I would like to split the country.
ABE: Oh and the other utterly wrongheaded responses about the public schools and public works. It's SO tiresome. Yes if we split the country maybe my country could have public schools that don't indoctrinate our children in leftist propaganda; and we'd certainly have taxpayer-funded public works because that is NOT progressive/socialist but a normal function of government. The more I hear stuff like that the more I want to split the country. In either sense of the term. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2
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What makes you think that the polarisation would be stopped by a split ? The Right is too dominated by hatred and lies at this point to just stop. Sure, you'll get the repressive tyranny you want, but who are you going to blame for all the social ills that will inevitably afflict the Red states ?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Just not having to listen to vicious crackpot accusations like yours would be worth any risks. As usual the hate is shown to come from your side. And the lies. Not to have to be governed by people of such hateful attitudes would be bliss.
RAZD had an idea about how it might be possible to avoid having to live by the odious red state policies he abhors and set up a political entity that could be governed by principles he prefers. I thought that was an interesting idea and I would really like to be able to do the same based on red state principles. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
In other words your Red State will be thoroughly repressive. Genuinely "vicious crackpot accusations" - like the "pizzagate" mess will be freely made and nobody will be permitted to disagree with them.
quote: And part of the point of the proposal is that the Red States are the poorest , and therefore get net assistance from the Federal Government - they are subsidised by the Blue States. On that factor alone life would get worse in the Red States even without the policies which will increase inequality and poverty. And my point is that the Red States would never accept responsibility for those consequences and - given the hate from the Right - there is little reason to doubt that some of that hate would be directed at the Blue States, perhaps even to the point of another civil war. Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I'm not the slightest bit interested in your hateful lying speculations and accusations. I also have no interest in discussing any of this with bigots like you. I have no doubt that just getting free of evil blue policies would free us red staters to build a healthy nation.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2
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And there you go proving my point. Rather than accept the reality you direct false accusations against anyone who points out the truth.
And if the Red State policies don't work - and policies based on ideology rather than reality don't have a good record - do you really think that you would admit that ?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined:
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It would be really nice if Trump could accomplish what he says he wants to do, bring us all together. Maybe he can if he is able to bring prosperity to the nation and provide for workers and poor people. I hope he can.
Right now, however, what we are seeing is all this horrific violence against those who voted for Trump. That's ALL coming from the Left, it's a product of Leftist ideology that somehow gives a sense of entitlement to get your way against the views and desires of the other half of the population. A completely unAmerican attitude. No doubt provoked and engineered by people behind the scenes, but also brought about by decades of Leftist brainwashing in the universities, by the Postmodern destruction of all moral standards, by such immoral Machiavellian propaganda as Alinsky's Rules for Radicals. The American founders knew that America could only survive if its people were moral, as John Adams said:
Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. Read more at: John Adams - Our Constitution was made only for a moral... With people rioting because they didn't win the election we can hardly say we are a moral and religious people any more.: What with doctrines like Postmodernism and Rules for Radicals and the willingness to break our laws to bring in illegals, threatening electors to force them to vote against Trump against the will of the people, the rejection of the Ten Commandments which are a pretty basic list of moral precepts without which a society can't survive long, maybe I should just give up. There is simply no solution to such a situation. We can't even have fun imagining how to set up a coalition of states that follow our own political views. It becomes ugly and mean. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
faith writes: Back in the day, Israel wanted a Messiah who could do the same thing...but they rejected Jesus beacause Jesus kingdom and purpose was not of this world. They placed their hope on worldly kings. It would be really nice if Trump could accomplish what he says he wants to do, bring us all together. Maybe he can if he is able to bring prosperity to the nation and provide for workers and poor people.I hope he can. Focus on Jesus and not Trump. Trump won't lead us to the promised land any more than any of Israels Kings could do.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
You are quite right, Phat, Trump can't do anything unless God is with him. That's why we have to pray for him.
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