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Author Topic:   Is it "Politically Correct"...
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1463 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 31 of 195 (816994)
08-14-2017 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by ringo
08-14-2017 12:06 PM


Re: the right to demonstrate, protest etc
It's a better policy to follow the discussion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by ringo, posted 08-14-2017 12:06 PM ringo has replied

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ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 32 of 195 (816996)
08-14-2017 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Faith
08-14-2017 1:18 PM


Re: the right to demonstrate, protest etc
Faith writes:
It's a better policy to follow the discussion.
The OP seems to be about tarring people with an unfair brush.

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 Message 31 by Faith, posted 08-14-2017 1:18 PM Faith has not replied

  
vimesey
Member (Idle past 91 days)
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 33 of 195 (817005)
08-14-2017 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by ringo
08-14-2017 11:44 AM


We're not talking about an official spokesman, are we? I thought we were talking about some guy in the crowd.
Mine was a reply to your message 8, in which you said "Authorities should only be able to deal with individuals who break the law" - I believe they should be able to deal with associations of individuals also, when the associations are held to have broken the law.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by ringo, posted 08-15-2017 11:44 AM vimesey has replied
 Message 35 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-15-2017 12:10 PM vimesey has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 34 of 195 (817068)
08-15-2017 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by vimesey
08-14-2017 3:57 PM


vimesey writes:
I believe they should be able to deal with associations of individuals also, when the associations are held to have broken the law.
Sure, but then you have to link the organization with the individual who actually committed the crime. If George happens to be a Freemason you can't charge the Freemasons with every crime that George commits.

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 35 of 195 (817076)
08-15-2017 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by vimesey
08-14-2017 3:57 PM


I believe they should be able to deal with associations of individuals also, when the associations are held to have broken the law.
So when Black Lives Matters goes to the streets and chants "Pigs in a blanket, fry 'em like bacon" and "What do we want? Dead cops. When do we want it? Now.", and then people actually go out and kill cops, are you on board with BLM being dealt with for this?

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 Message 79 by jar, posted 08-15-2017 8:52 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 36 of 195 (817079)
08-15-2017 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by New Cat's Eye
08-15-2017 12:10 PM


New Cat's Eye writes:
... are you on board with BLM being dealt with for this?
How do you "deal with" an organization? Lock up every member?

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vimesey
Member (Idle past 91 days)
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 37 of 195 (817082)
08-15-2017 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by ringo
08-15-2017 11:44 AM


If George happens to be a Freemason you can't charge the Freemasons with every crime that George commits.
Indeed, but if the Freemasons were a white supremacist movement and their actions were intended to or likely to incite racial hatred, then they could indeed be prosecuted over here as an organisation, for that incitement. The actions of their members would be good evidence at the hearing.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by ringo, posted 08-15-2017 11:44 AM ringo has replied

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vimesey
Member (Idle past 91 days)
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 38 of 195 (817083)
08-15-2017 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by New Cat's Eye
08-15-2017 12:10 PM


If Black Lives Matter were active in England, and there was evidence that the organisation incited racial hatred, then yes, they would likely be prosecuted.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

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 Message 35 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-15-2017 12:10 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

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ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 39 of 195 (817089)
08-15-2017 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by vimesey
08-15-2017 12:19 PM


vimesey writes:
... but if the Freemasons were a white supremacist movement and their actions were intended to or likely to incite racial hatred, then they could indeed be prosecuted over here as an organisation, for that incitement. The actions of their members would be good evidence at the hearing.
That isn't a reply to what I said. We're not talking about actions of an organization; we're talking about actions of an individual who may be affiliated with that organization.
Even if ideas inspire racial hatred, you shouldn't be able to prosecute everybody who expresses those ideas. You might as well prosecute the publishers who are still printing Mein Kampf.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18292
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 40 of 195 (817098)
08-15-2017 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by ringo
08-15-2017 12:38 PM


Tit For Tat
Even if ideas inspire racial hatred, you shouldn't be able to prosecute everybody who expresses those ideas. You might as well prosecute the publishers who are still printing Mein Kampf.
Or you may as well prosecute God if he allegedly wrote the Bible.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 41 of 195 (817116)
08-15-2017 1:25 PM


And Alex Jones blames...Jews
Media Matters
That sounds just a bit anti-Semitic to me.

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 Message 43 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 2:26 PM PaulK has replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1043 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


(1)
Message 42 of 195 (817134)
08-15-2017 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by vimesey
08-15-2017 12:21 PM


If Black Lives Matter were active in England, and there was evidence that the organisation incited racial hatred, then yes, they would likely be prosecuted.
You can't prosecute Black Lives Matter in the UK any more than in the US. Black Lives Matter is an organisation in the sense that it's a bunch of people who got together to organise something. It is not, however, a juristic person - corporations, trade unions, charities, business partnerships - all these entities can be liable for criminal offenses. Loosely organised political movements obviously cannot; since they have no formally recognised structure and command and responsibility. What would it even mean to prosecute BLM? Organisations are punished under British law by fines. If BLM doesn't have a bank account then there's nothing to fine.
Let's ignore the self-evident impossibility of bringing criminal action against something which has no legal reality. Even if BLM was registered as some kind of trust or charity; it's actually very hard under UK law to prove the responsibility of the organisation for things done by people considered to be acting in its name. For any crime other than manslaughter the prosecution is required to establish that the individual who committed the crime is senior enough to be considered the 'controlling mind' of the organisation. It's unclear what could be conceived as the controlling mind of a decentralised protest group.
If there was evidence that an organisation in England was inciting racial hatred, the individuals doing so would likely be prosecuted as individuals. Trying to prosecute their organisation would be a foolish waste of time. Organisations (usually corporations) are convicted of things like bribery. I would be astounded if there is a single case in English history of an organisation convicted of incitement to anything.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1463 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 43 of 195 (817137)
08-15-2017 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by PaulK
08-15-2017 1:25 PM


Re: And Alex Jones blames...Jews
There are many strongly Leftist Jews. There are also many strongly Rightist Jews. ABE: David Horowitz, Michael Savage, Mark Levin come to mind and at least Horowitz and Savage appear on Alex Jones' show from time to time.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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 Message 45 by PaulK, posted 08-15-2017 4:31 PM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10021
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 44 of 195 (817165)
08-15-2017 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Faith
08-15-2017 2:26 PM


Re: And Alex Jones blames...Jews
Faith writes:
There are many strongly Leftist Jews. There are also many strongly Rightist Jews. ABE: David Horowitz, Michael Savage, Mark Levin come to mind and at least Horowitz and Savage appear on Alex Jones' show from time to time.
I don't see how that addresses what was said. One of the more popular voices on the political right is accusing jews of faking the riots. This anti-Semitism goes back more than a century, such as the Dreyfus Affair and Hitler's non-stop accusation of a world wide Jewish conspiracy against the Aryan people.

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 Message 43 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 2:26 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 45 of 195 (817166)
08-15-2017 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Faith
08-15-2017 2:26 PM


Re: And Alex Jones blames...Jews
So, let me understand. Alex Jones is defending the Ku Klux Klan by alleging a Jewish conspiracy and you're fine with that because he says it's "left wing" Jews? Seriously?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 2:26 PM Faith has not replied

  
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