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Author Topic:   Anti-Science bill in Indiana.....
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 154 (651221)
02-05-2012 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by purpledawn
02-05-2012 10:37 AM


Re: Pilgrim myth.
I think you are yielding on some very important ground; namely that creationism does not represent the beliefs of all Christians. Not all denominations and sects of Christianity rage against evolution in the way that some fundies do.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by purpledawn, posted 02-05-2012 10:37 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 77 of 154 (651222)
02-05-2012 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by bluegenes
02-05-2012 11:05 AM


Re: Pilgrim myth.
quote:
Much better, but I hope you don't mind if I nit-pick a bit. Firstly, there's no such thing as "science based on a religious belief", so something like "if we allow religious belief to be presented as science in a core course" might be better. The words "their own religions" could be wiped as well, because they're redundant.
Nit pick all you want. That is a much better way to say it. Thanks

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 78 of 154 (651224)
02-05-2012 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by NoNukes
02-05-2012 6:49 PM


Minority
I think I had minority in one work through, but apparently lost it before posting. How's this?
The purpose of science education is to teach the leading ideas of science and this includes the theory of evolution which explains the diversity of life, not the origin of life. Creation science is not a leading idea of science, but is a minority religious belief and therefore has no place in a required class.
I could also go with: Creation science is not a leading idea of science; and it isn't a leading belief of Christianity. Therefore, it has no place in a required class.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by NoNukes, posted 02-05-2012 6:49 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Percy, posted 02-06-2012 7:32 AM purpledawn has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 79 of 154 (651265)
02-06-2012 7:32 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by purpledawn
02-05-2012 7:20 PM


Re: Minority
Well, gosh, if nitpicking is okay then how's this:
The purpose of science education is to teach science. Religious beliefs are not science and have no place in science class.
Of course, I didn't really rewrite it. I wrote what I would say. Feel free to ignore and discard.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by purpledawn, posted 02-05-2012 7:20 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by purpledawn, posted 02-06-2012 8:31 AM Percy has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 80 of 154 (651271)
02-06-2012 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Percy
02-06-2012 7:32 AM


Re: Minority
My strategy is to try and counter some of the reasons that Sen. Kruse gave for promoting the bill. Message 23
The Senators have heard the science and have heard the legal issues and the House will hear the same. Sadly, the majority chose to ignore the information.
Notice that some districts are already teaching creationism in science class. So one ruse is to give these districts legal cover.
1 Feb 2012 Indianapolis Star, Indiana
Kruse said he is aware of the precedent but isn't sure it would survive today.
"This is a different Supreme Court," he said. "This Supreme Court could rule differently."
Sen. Tim Skinner, D-Terre Haute, asked whether Indiana is ready for the lengthy legal battle that could follow.
"If we get sued," he asked, "who is going to pay for the lawsuit?"
The answer to Skinner's question might help explain why Kruse felt the need to put creationism into state law.
Technically, a school district could teach creationism now -- and some do.
"As far as I know," said Mount Vernon Community School Corporation Superintendent William Riggs, "we've always been allowed to do that."
Riggs said Mount Vernon High School's biology class already teaches creationism alongside evolution. "We've been doing this for years."
Riggs said the school teaches them as "two theories of the origins of life" and said that in literature classes students often learn about the Bible and the Quran. "The idea is to get kids to think."
But districts such as Mount Vernon potentially open themselves up to costly lawsuits. Kruse's bill gives those districts and any other that choose to teach creationism some legal cover -- and likely would draw the state into their defense.
Indianapolis (AP) 31 Jan 2012
The proposal doesn't require any school district to teach creationism and allows them to continue with their current science classes, Kruse said.
"This does not do away with the teaching of evolution," he said. "This provides another alternative to evolution so our children are being exposed to more than one view, which I think is healthy for them."
I guess I'm trying to impress upon my rep that core classes are not the place to present religious views. Schools doing this should be told to use elective classes for this exposure.
I'd also like to get the point across that the school system isn't about throwing various views on subjects at our children and the children decide what to accept. They learn the standard of the times and graduate. I haven't worked on wording for that yet.
I also want to stress that the religious institutions are there to teach religious beliefs and they can teach creationism all they want. There is no need for religious teachings to be in the public school system other than a means to push beliefs.
Why can't they teach creationism next to evolution in their religious institutions? They can open it up to the town.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Percy, posted 02-06-2012 7:32 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 81 of 154 (651279)
02-06-2012 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by purpledawn
02-06-2012 8:31 AM


Re: Minority
purpledawn writes:
I guess I'm trying to impress upon my rep that core classes are not the place to present religious views. Schools doing this should be told to use elective classes for this exposure.
Well said, put it in: "Core classes are not the place to present religious views. Tell schools to use elective classes."
--Percy

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Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4228 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 82 of 154 (651306)
02-06-2012 11:00 AM


LOL AWESOME
I am beginning to like Indiana more and more.

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by subbie, posted 02-06-2012 3:49 PM Artemis Entreri has not replied
 Message 84 by Taq, posted 02-06-2012 3:58 PM Artemis Entreri has replied
 Message 86 by purpledawn, posted 02-07-2012 7:57 AM Artemis Entreri has replied
 Message 91 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-07-2012 3:53 PM Artemis Entreri has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 83 of 154 (651351)
02-06-2012 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Artemis Entreri
02-06-2012 11:00 AM


Re: LOL AWESOME
OMG! U R so FUN E. ROTFLMAO@U!!!!!!!11!!!!!eleven!!!!!!

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

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Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 84 of 154 (651355)
02-06-2012 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Artemis Entreri
02-06-2012 11:00 AM


Re: LOL AWESOME
I am beginning to like Indiana more and more.
Is it common in North Virginia for people to hold the opinion that science needs to be balanced by superstition? Just curious.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Artemis Entreri, posted 02-06-2012 11:00 AM Artemis Entreri has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Artemis Entreri, posted 02-08-2012 11:37 AM Taq has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 85 of 154 (651387)
02-07-2012 7:51 AM


Here's what I have so far. I'm trying to keep this to one page. Much more than that and they may not read it through.
As a Christian, I am deeply disappointed that our Senate thought it was wise to ignore a U.S. Supreme Court ruling and made allowance for a Christian Fundamentalist belief to be taught in our science classes. On top of that, to make this bill look less intolerant of other religious beliefs, various religious beliefs concerning origins of life are to be taught.
In 1791, the Bill of Rights was ratified and the very first one protects our freedom of religion. If we allow a religious belief to be presented as science in a core course instead of an elective course, we are forcing children to learn those beliefs and taking away their freedom to choose not to learn about other religions. Historically in our country, Christianity hasn't always been accommodating when other religions wish to freely practice or not practice a religion. We don't need unnecessary conflict in the classrooms. Jesus did not teach his disciples to force religion onto others or force others to listen to religious beliefs.
The purpose of science education is to teach the leading ideas of science and this includes the theory of evolution which explains the diversity of life, not the origin of life. Creation science is not a leading idea of science, but is a minority religious belief and therefore has no place in a required class.
Senator Kruse was quoted in the February 1, 2012, Indianapolis Star as saying, "I believe in creation," Kruse said, "and I believe it deserves to be taught in our public schools."
The first four tenets of Scientific Creationism:
The physical universe of space, time, matter and energy has not always existed, but was supernaturally created by a transcendent personal Creator who alone has existed from eternity.
The phenomenon of biological life did not develop by natural processes from inanimate systems but was specially and supernaturally created by the Creator.
Each of the major kinds of plants and animals was created functionally complete from the beginning and did not evolve from some other kind of organism. Changes in basic kinds since their first creation are limited to "horizontal" changes (variations) within the kinds, or "downward" changes (e.g., harmful mutations, extinctions).
The first human beings did not evolve from an animal ancestry, but were specially created in fully human form from the start. Furthermore, the "spiritual" nature of man (self-image, moral consciousness, abstract reasoning, language, will, religious nature, etc.) is itself a supernaturally created entity distinct from mere biological life.
These are religious views, not science. Required core classes are not the place to present religious views. Schools that are presenting religious views in core classes should be asked to stop and use elective classes only.
I have room for a witty summary or sign off. Still working on that. How's it look so far? Should I include the link to the tenets?

Replies to this message:
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 Message 88 by Perdition, posted 02-07-2012 10:14 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 86 of 154 (651388)
02-07-2012 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Artemis Entreri
02-06-2012 11:00 AM


Re: LOL AWESOME
Nah, we're always cursing the weather wheel and then we have to repent. It's a vicious cycle.
God gave us good (for winter anyway) weather for the Super Bowl, but now winter is back and our gardens will probably pay dearly this summer. We are a muddy mess.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Artemis Entreri, posted 02-06-2012 11:00 AM Artemis Entreri has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Artemis Entreri, posted 02-08-2012 11:41 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
Warthog
Member (Idle past 3968 days)
Posts: 84
From: Earth
Joined: 01-18-2012


Message 87 of 154 (651394)
02-07-2012 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by purpledawn
02-07-2012 7:51 AM


This is all well put and well presented.
quote:
I have room for a witty summary or sign off. Still working on that. How's it look so far? Should I include the link to the tenets
I would've made reference to the potential court case this could bring but that may seem needlessly antagonistic.
If you include links, they would be more effective if they are associated with the people behind pushing the bill - especially if it is them actually saying it. That would give them much more weight, assuming anyone checked.
Good luck with it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by purpledawn, posted 02-07-2012 7:51 AM purpledawn has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 88 of 154 (651395)
02-07-2012 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by purpledawn
02-07-2012 7:51 AM


I think this is a very well written letter.
I have room for a witty summary or sign off.
These can eb effective, but you have to be careful. If it's too witty, it may seem condescending, or it may even fly over the recipeint's head.
I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with and later, hearing how it was received.
Keep fighting the good fight.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by purpledawn, posted 02-07-2012 7:51 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by purpledawn, posted 02-07-2012 3:36 PM Perdition has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 89 of 154 (651439)
02-07-2012 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Warthog
02-07-2012 9:37 AM


With regards to the court cases, it appears that the bill's authors are counting on being able to over turn those cases. I'm not sure they aren't right about that.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Warthog, posted 02-07-2012 9:37 AM Warthog has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 90 of 154 (651454)
02-07-2012 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Perdition
02-07-2012 10:14 AM


Final Part
How's this look?
I ask that you carefully research the facts behind the drive to bring creationism into our children’s classrooms. It isn’t about science. It’s about belief.
We should speak where the Bible speaks and be silent where the Bible is silent. The Bible is silent on science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Perdition, posted 02-07-2012 10:14 AM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Perdition, posted 02-07-2012 4:06 PM purpledawn has not replied
 Message 93 by Trixie, posted 02-07-2012 4:13 PM purpledawn has replied
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