What is a True Christian?

More pointless points. lol.
Just read the Bible to find out what a true Christian is.You know I guess the real thing is, that a real Christian should never try to judge if someone else is Christian. Only oneself.Sorry, I meant to say athiests. Yes they do argue, just not about God, because they don't believe in him.I do not owe anything to main stream churches other than the fact that they kept me away from God for many years. I had to find God on my own, because I could not stand the likes of Jerry falwell, the catholic church and company.
It is only now that I found a church that I like, and it is because of the people there, not any set of beliefs. Still I watch very closely.Believing in God is a freedom, and sets you free.

I corrected myself. I was told second hand of this experience, so I am not really sure if they thought it was God or not.
It was a wierd story, but came from a pretty credible person IMO. He saw someone who was filled, and asked God if it was true, and God put the thought in his head that it wasn't from God.
This is where I got this idea from.The moral of that point is to be careful, and always check in with God.
He does answer all prayers, and protects you from evil, after all.I can only really speak for myself.

I don't know about that one really. It was written that Jesus said the only way to the father is through him.
Maybe at the pearly Gates you'll get a second chance based on who you were in life, I don't know. Thats up to God.But I agree with you in the fact that there are many a great athiests, who are genuinly nice people, and deserve to "go to heaven". All my closest friends are, and I Love them, no matter what they choose to believe in.

No you can't. Here is why.
Prophets are judged soley on the accuracy of thier prophecy. Thats why any prophet who bears "bad fruit" is not really a prophet. This is what he was talking about.Also, we are all sinners, wait let me correct that by saying, we are born into sin, and it dwells within us. We don't have a choice about that. The only one who was pure was Jesus. He said that if we even think about sinning, that we then commited the sin, thereby making it impossible for us to be sin free. Only he could do that.
So if a Christian were a tree, he would always bear a bad fruit, then making the way you extrapolated that scripture, impossible.
That is why it only pertains to prophets.The importance of knowing if a prophet is true or not, is evedent.

Was that what it was for you?
You don't talk like someone who has had the truth revealed to himself.

I'm sorry I took so long to get back to this but you guys post so much in only a day or so... I'd like to respond to one of WillowTree's earlier posts, but seeing as the topic has moved on since then, I'll include it in this response instead.

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Rockhound quote:
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This has come up again and again, and always in the same pattern - if someone disagrees with creationism or another fundamentalist position, then they are not 'true Christians'
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Not true.

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You most certainly can disagree, and you most certainly should be able to disagree without someone changing the subject and accusing you of not being a "true christian".

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This was in no way directed at you personally. I post on another forum of the same vein as EvC, and I have seen this pattern there a few times now. I was merely speaking from experience.

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The only problem was that YOU wrote a post that said my position cannot be the position of a true christian BECAUSE in your view I was not "turning the other cheek.....loving my neighbor".

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I was expressing my opinion. Surely I am allowed to do this? I read your posts and, in my opinion, the views you expressed were distinctly intolerant and hateful towards non-Christians. As I am a non-Christian, I decided to point this out. Also, as the basic principle of the teachings of Christ is to love rather than hate, I concluded that you were not truly following those teachings, and stated as such

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You are perfectly representative of the world at large that believes the Sermon on the Mount and complying with its directives is the goal for christians.

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The Sermon on the Mount:

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NOBODY can keep the precepts and laws contained therein. It is a sledgehammer intended to show everyone that they cannot do it. Jesus said if you even DESIRE to sin, in God's eyes you are guilty as if you did it.

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Jesus changed the Law to a even more impossible standard - a standard that only Jesus would fulfill and keep. Nobody can love their enemy, nobody can refrain from lusting in their heart, nobody can cease from hating - ONLY Jesus could. He preached all these things so we would come to the conclusion that we CANNOT live up to this Divine standard.

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This Sermon was shoes that only Jesus could fill - the Law Incarnate.
When He fulfilled the Law God crucified Him thus killing the impossible standard that mankind could not keep.

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The purpose of the Sermon on the Mount is to make mankind conclude that they cannot do it, it is intended to drive them to the GOSPEL, which is the only other God ordained alternative, something we can do.

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The Sermon on the Mount's purpose is to scare the hell out of you and drive you to the gospel (way of faith) as the only other way to relate to God through the risen Christ.

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WT, as a non-Christian, I don't know and don't care about the Sermon on the Mount. So saying that I believe anything about it is largely irrelevent.

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Does this mean we can sin ? I didn't say that. Remaining in sins is not an alternative. The gospel embraced will have God free you from your sinning nature as we pursue the gospel/faith.

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Again, irrelevent to a non-Christian.

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Rockhound wants to ignore my pointy points and lump it all to be hate filled ranting. Then he asserts himself superior and justifies it with a pea brained citing of scripture.

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I simply stated that Christ taught to love rather than hate, the whole "love thy neighbour" thing. Am I wrong? Is that not the basic message? Christians like you tell me that it is all the time, usually when trying to convert me.

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YOUR lifelong understanding of the Sermon is error !

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Irrelevent.

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The goal is not imitation through carnal discipline, rather, spiritual fruition via the power of the gospel.

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I hate the destruction of the Constitution by persons who have successfully changed original intent. In my opinion every true christian should hate that too.

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That is, of course, your opinion. As it is off-topic I will refrain from commenting.

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If you say you don't hate then you are a liar. Everyone hates.

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I never said that; please do not misrepresent me. My post was entirely in reference to you, if I remember correctly.

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A true christian is hated by the world because Jesus said a servant is no different from his master. They hated Jesus - they will hate you too.

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Whats a true christian ?

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Paul the Apostle.

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If your christianity doesn't cause a riot - then you are a luke warm compromiser who cares more about the praise of men than of God.

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Also irrelevent to a non-Christian.

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I really don't care what non christians think of me, but if any god damn fundementalist says one critical word about me then I will PROVE from scripture that YOU are the worst piece of God damn shit on the face of the Earth.

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Then you will not care what I think of you. I should probably point out that insults and cursing are not very Christian-like either. (I was a Catholic once, so I do remember something about how it goes.)Anyway, on to the actual topic...

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Presently, I am containing an inner rage against fundementalist christians. They are to blame for misrepresenting God and the message of the N.T.

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Here we are in agreement - I also think that fundamentalist Christians misrepresent the message of the New Testament. I sometimes feel that they missed the point of it all, but mostly they just scare me.The Rock Hound

RiverRat, please don't get into the whole 'revealed truth' thing here - we'll be debating for years if we do. What if the truth was revealed to someone, but they decided that it was from something other than god? What if the truth was revealed to someone, and they thought it was a pack of lies?The problem with that is that it's too subjective to be useful in a definition. However, 'reading the bible to find out what a true Christian is' may be more useful - are there any passages in particular you could point us at?The Rock Hound

Satanists dont actually believe in god or the devil (more of a sort of nature red in tooth and claw force). This of course is using the definition of people that follow the documented religion Satanism. All that is really required is a belief in the occult nothing more, and of course agreement with their doctorines (most of which are quite good). In fact when i was looking through all the various religions i found Satanism to be one of the ones that could suit me better, cept i dont believe in the occult, so bang goes that one.Unseul

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Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life....

MMM, the revealed truth. Ok, I agree, but I have talked to many people who feel exactly the way I do about it.But your right, it is a personal thing.If I was to point to the bible to explain to you what a true christian is, we would find out that it is between God and oneself. Not for us to judge.Alot could be said about the word "true" in true christian. By definition, it is someone who believes in Jesus, and accepts him as a savior of our sins.IMO "true" christians are just as screwd up as the rest of the world, they just accept Jesus. The amount of good you do, or Love you show is irrelevant to whether you are a true christian or not. Trying to be christ-like doesn't make you any more a true christian, it only builds up your treasures in heaven.This pretty much sums it up:John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[1] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.Look at the words "not perish". That scares me.
So believing in him, makes you christian, and gives you eternal life.About judgement and truth:Romans 2God's Righteous Judgment1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.
2Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth.
3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment?
4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?
5But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.
6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[1]
7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;
10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.
11For God does not show favoritism.
12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.
13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law,
15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)
16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.This is the truth I speak of.
It also explains judgement, which has nothing to do with being a true christian or not.I Love the part about the law (truth) being written on your heart.
This is why when we do good things for people, we feel good inside about it. When we give ourselves to God, this law becomes a greater feeling, and then the truth is revealed in a such a powerful way, that it no longer is just a word describing whether something is true or false. It becomes a feeling within, a core feeling of our very existance. The truth is shown to us, and then we are one with God. We can also then be able to see untruths. Everything becomes very clear. People can no longer lie to you, because you will be able to tell, because the Holy Spirit is then guiding you.
The Holy Spirit is truth.
Then you are free.It is to me, incredible.This message has been edited by riVeRraT, 05-26-2004 10:04 AM

Main Entry: satanism
Pronunciation: 'sA-t&n-"i-z&m
Function: noun
Usage: often capitalized
1 : innate wickedness : DIABOLISM
2 : obsession with or affinity for evil; specifically : the worship of Satan marked by the travesty of Christian ritesJust thought I'd point that out to you, for your benifit.

Hmm... Ok then. I declare the first requirement of a 'true' Christian to be this:A belief in Jesus Christ as the divine Messiah.That sound good to everyone? Now, do we need any other more specific requirements?(BTW thanks for the feedback RiverRat)

Er... no. That's not entirely correct. Unseul is actually right in his description - you seem to be presenting the conventional Christian view of Satanism.From religioustolerance.org:

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"Various meanings of "Satanism:"
When people think of Christianity, Islam, Judaism, and many other religions, they have at least a general idea of what the religion involves. "Satanism" is an exception. In North America, many people use it as a general-purpose religious "snarl" word. Others consider a wide variety of beliefs and practices as Satanism.

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Most religious historians, mainline Christians, liberal Christians, etc., view Satanism as Satanists themselves do: as a very small religious group that is unrelated to any other faith, and whose members feel free to satisfy their urges responsibly, exhibit kindness to their friends, and attack their enemies. There are perhaps ten thousand Satanists in North America. By far the largest Satanic organization is the Church of Satan. Accurate membership numbers are quite impossible to estimate.

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Specifically from fundie Christians:

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Conservative Christians generally believe that there are only two powerful supernatural forces in the world: their God and Satan. A few of them believe that if a person does not worship their God and hold their beliefs, then they must be worshiping Satan. The latter are, by definition, Satanists. Thus, they view all religions different from their own to be are forms of Satanism. This would include established world religions from Buddhism to Zoroastrianism, and might even include liberal and some mainline Christians. Satanists would then make up in excess of 90% of the world's population -- i.e. everyone who is not a conservative Christian. Using this definition, the term "Satanism" becomes almost meaningless.

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Satanism is no more evil or twisted than any other alternative religion - except it tends to get really terrible PR.

That's what I thought; that Satanism was Humanism with rituals and symbols (if you use a loose enough definition of Humanism). I too, buy into the vast majority of it except that I do not believe in actual magic.
Only the fantasy magic that in D & D and M:TG.

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No you can't. Here is why.
Prophets are judged soley on the accuracy of thier prophecy. Thats why any prophet who bears "bad fruit" is not really a prophet. This is what he was talking about.

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Can I say:

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Luke 6:43-45
For there is no good tree which produces bad fruit, nor, on the other hand, a bad tree which produces good fruit. For each tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they pick grapes from a briar bush.

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The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart.

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Would this pertain to regular Christians?
Would Christians still bear bad fruit in this instance?Or are Christians today more like Gurney's 5-in-1 apple tree. Five different varieties from sweet to sour on one tree.

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A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

riVeRraT wrote:

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Just read the Bible to find out what a true Christian is.

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I'm probably having a hack at the wrong person, because people like you and Jar seem like genuinely nice persons...All Christians read and quote from the same book. All back up their stance with passages from the Bible. Was it Shakespeare who said that you can find justification for any act in the Bible?I do acknowledge that there is sometimes described a Christian ideal that sounds extremely admirable. Jar articulates an approach to spiritual life that even an atheist would consider admirable and something probably like what an "all good" God would require.But then there are others on this forum, who call themselves Christians, quote from the Bible and are people who demonstrate reprehensible character traits.If it was easy to find out what a true Christian is, from the Bible or elsewhere, this thread would be finished by now.Let's try a definition: Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary 1ne who professes belief in the teachings of JesusI believe that makes all of you True Christians.

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Sorry, I meant to say athiests. Yes they do argue, just not about God, because they don't believe in him.

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Yep, sure we do. About fun stuff, mostly to gain knowledge or to intellectually exercise. We don't bicker in the same way theists do: "I'm right, your wrong and you are going to burn in hell" because we realise that the evidence points to the fact that life is simply what you make of it. It's a subjective thing, and there is little point about arguing about those things.Of course, from the outside, religion appears very subjective also.

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I do not owe anything to main stream churches other than the fact that they kept me away from God for many years. I had to find God on my own, because I could not stand the likes of Jerry falwell, the catholic church and company.
It is only now that I found a church that I like, and it is because of the people there, not any set of beliefs. Still I watch very closely.

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Like I said, Christianity wouldn't exist today if it wasn't for the history of those mainstream churches. Your Bible was cannonised, evolved and translated by those very same churches. Your God, as you see it, was conceived by those churches.I can understand why fundies distance themselves from such churches: because of their despicable history and recent acknowledgement of the allegorical nature of Genesis.I respect your path through faith: your appear to have shed some of the burdens usually associated with Christianity and are justifiably wary of organised religion.The world would be a better place and religious intolerance non-existence if religion resided solely within oneself.

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Believing in God is a freedom, and sets you free.

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All ex-Chritian atheists claim the exact opposite. You are internalising your God, and finding a belief system to accomodate your requirements. Undoutably, this would feel very liberating.Talk to some of the fundie nutters on this thread though and they will attempt to devour you alive for this approach.For them it is all about submission: supposedly to God, but invaribaly to a church and it's elders. I think you know about this stuff!