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Author Topic:   What is a True Christian?
Gilgamesh
Inactive Member


Message 106 of 329 (110758)
05-26-2004 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by riVeRraT
05-26-2004 9:37 AM


Re: Tad off topic
riVeRraT wrote:

Was that what it was for you?
You don't talk like someone who has had the truth revealed to himself.
On the contrary, I saw the truth of the religious conversion process. After six of them, and hundreds of hours in congregations of many Christian faiths, I'd say I'm in a very good position to comment.
The conversion experience for many Christians is either a temporal lobe experience, sometimes akin to an emotional breakdown or just merely succumbing to emotively compelling peer group pressure.
This truth has not been revealed to you.
I have conceived ways of testing the validity of the conversion process, have applied those tests, and found the process (in it's myriad of forms) wanting.
I'm going to dump this line of discussion, if you don't mind, because it is off topic and causes Christains major grief.
Sorry riVeRraT, it is your other Christian (and other religious) brethren that I have issue with: those that lie, distort, twist, intimidate in order to perpetuate their own personal power at the expense of all humanity.
You are not one of those.
This message has been edited by Gilgamesh, 05-26-2004 08:24 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by riVeRraT, posted 05-26-2004 9:37 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by riVeRraT, posted 05-27-2004 9:42 AM Gilgamesh has not replied

  
Unseul
Inactive Member


Message 107 of 329 (110760)
05-26-2004 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by riVeRraT
05-26-2004 11:07 AM


Though Rockhound has already pointed out your error about the Religion satanism, heres the website, can i suggest just looking att the basic beliefs and structure web page in it, u can get a good idea of what its all about. http://www.churchofsatan.com
Like i said i agree with most the ideas, its very do unto others as they do unto you, you are to respect people and their property if you dont expect to be punished.
Unseul

Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by riVeRraT, posted 05-26-2004 11:07 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by riVeRraT, posted 05-26-2004 10:40 PM Unseul has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 108 of 329 (110768)
05-26-2004 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by IrishRockhound
05-26-2004 11:18 AM


The definition was websters online definition, not mine.
If people choose to use the word incorrectly to define thier religious beliefs whether they believe in Satan or not, is up to them.
As far as your second quote, and having a little to do with the first one. "If you do not worship God, then you worship Satan", this is not true, as many people throughout history have worshiped false Gods.
Anytime you make up your own religion, that is not of God of the Bible, you are worshiping a false God. This is different than worshiping the devil.
Just because there is only 2 supernatural forces in the world, doesn't mean that you cannot worship yourself, and the rules you make up for yourself.
Worshiping is a consious decision and not limited to only 2 beings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by IrishRockhound, posted 05-26-2004 11:18 AM IrishRockhound has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 109 of 329 (110772)
05-26-2004 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by purpledawn
05-26-2004 2:27 PM


Re: What is actually necessary to be a Christian
Awesome point!
But, verse 6:43-44 is pertaining to Matthew 7:16,18,20.
Verse 6:45 is pertaing to how you, youself should act.
Which also relates to Matthew 7:21-23.
Which goes along with what I am saying. To be a Christian, you must believe in Christ and accept him as your savior.
But this doesn't mean you won't be judged by how you perform the will of the Father.
I am really starting to dislike the expression "true Christian" as it could have too many meanings, one of them being contradictory.
What is really meant by that expression?
Then we could discuss it better.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by purpledawn, posted 05-26-2004 2:27 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by jar, posted 05-26-2004 10:38 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 119 by purpledawn, posted 05-27-2004 8:20 AM riVeRraT has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 110 of 329 (110778)
05-26-2004 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Gilgamesh
05-26-2004 9:12 PM


Re: What true Christains are.
I agree completely with you about Christians in general. But limiting it to only Christians is wrong on your part, it is universal that about 80% of all people don't really understand what it is they are into. But they will be judged based on who and what they are, something we couldn't understand.
Yep, sure we do. About fun stuff, mostly to gain knowledge or to intellectually exercise. We don't bicker in the same way theists do: "I'm right, your wrong and you are going to burn in hell" because we realise that the evidence points to the fact that life is simply what you make of it. It's a subjective thing, and there is little point about arguing about those things.
I guess you never seen 2 athiests in a bar fight, and then pulled out knives on each other?
Oh and religion is run by, and created by the guidance of man.
Like I said, Christianity wouldn't exist today if it wasn't for the history of those mainstream churches. Your Bible was cannonised, evolved and translated by those very same churches. Your God, as you see it, was conceived by those churches.
This is your opinion.
I find nothing wrong with Genesis.
All ex-Chritian atheists claim the exact opposite. You are internalising your God, and finding a belief system to accomodate your requirements. Undoutably, this would feel very liberating.
Almost but not quite. I was raised a Christian, but from a very young age decided after reading the Bible that the catholic church was not in the word of God. I was then liberated by being free of that churches beliefs.
Where did those beliefs come from? thats right man.
I still studied the Bible, but for 25 years I remained without believing in God. I gave my heart to Jesus 5 years ago, but didn't feel anything until very recently. My life is fine, I am a very sucessful business man with 5 lovely children. I own a home, and I am debt free, cept for the mortgage. I have all the toys I could want. Why would I need God?
As far as my church goes, I Love the people in it. They have encouraged me to become a leader. I co-run the worship team (music) and I have my own small ministry group. All this in 4 months of being there. We are talking about a church with over 400 members.
The elders rock! My pastor road his Harley into Church while we played Born to Wild.
The second pastor and his wife are pastoring for free, because there isn't enough money to pay them.
I give to the church, because of my faith in God, and it has only brought me all the blessings.
Of course I realize that in a heartbeat this could all change, because it is still man. I have decided that when this happens not to blame God for it.
Hopefully you could see where I am coming from a little bit.
I don't have a problem telling you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Gilgamesh, posted 05-26-2004 9:12 PM Gilgamesh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by Gilgamesh, posted 05-26-2004 11:42 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 116 by Buzsaw, posted 05-26-2004 11:56 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 144 by nator, posted 05-30-2004 10:29 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 145 by nator, posted 05-30-2004 10:33 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 111 of 329 (110779)
05-26-2004 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by riVeRraT
05-26-2004 10:13 PM


Re: What is actually necessary to be a Christian
riVeRraT writes:
I am really starting to dislike the expression "true Christian" as it could have too many meanings, one of them being contradictory.
IMHO one of the problems is that too often Christian is used to refer to something external when it is actually internal. I'm not sure that when the term is used to mean a mass, a church, a state, a nation or a people that it has much meaning other than as a designator.
Christianity is a very personal relationship between the individual and GOD. It is an open friendship, intimate and boundless. It is a way of life and a way of living, no more, no less.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by riVeRraT, posted 05-26-2004 10:13 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by riVeRraT, posted 05-26-2004 10:45 PM jar has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 112 of 329 (110780)
05-26-2004 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Unseul
05-26-2004 9:25 PM


Has the world got you so confused that you think this would be an OK thing to join?
I am not in error and neither is webster.
Wow dude...
I actually don't know what to say.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Unseul, posted 05-26-2004 9:25 PM Unseul has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 113 of 329 (110782)
05-26-2004 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by jar
05-26-2004 10:38 PM


Re: What is actually necessary to be a Christian
Awesome stuff man!
Would you agree that alot of "religions" today could be considered false prophets, and only help satan in his quest?
After all, when people wake up and realize that the church they belong too is wrong(or bearing bad fruit), aren't they more likely to be mad at all religions, and then possibly God?
No one said finding God was easy.
Then my experience is that once you find him, life gets harder in some ways.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by jar, posted 05-26-2004 10:38 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by jar, posted 05-26-2004 11:08 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 114 of 329 (110783)
05-26-2004 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by riVeRraT
05-26-2004 10:45 PM


Re: What is actually necessary to be a Christian
riVeRraT writes:
Would you agree that alot of "religions" today could be considered false prophets, and only help satan in his quest?
I don't know. And I'm sure that I am not qualified to judge more than from the superficial outward behaviours. I really can't tell except by what they show and demonstrate through their actions. They must testify and their actions testify for them.
I personally believe that if they say they know the one true answer, or that they have the one true path, then they are most likely not Godly. IMHO, if they place the Bible above God, then they are probably not Godly. If they condone hate for others, whether those of another religion, nation, sexual orientation, race or sex, then they are probably not Godly.
GOD is not bounded by our beliefs. GOD is and was and will be. If GOD chooses to speak to humans as Allah, then GOD will so speak. If GOD reaches some through Jesus, then he will do so. If GOD wishes to reach people through the teaching of Buddah then he will teach. If he touchs people through Brahma the Creator, then that is how he will appear.
GOD is and was and will be.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by riVeRraT, posted 05-26-2004 10:45 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by riVeRraT, posted 05-27-2004 8:48 AM jar has replied

  
Gilgamesh
Inactive Member


Message 115 of 329 (110789)
05-26-2004 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by riVeRraT
05-26-2004 10:38 PM


Re: What true Christains are.
Hello riVeRraT,
I'm really enjoying reading your posts and I can relate to a lot of what you write about. Accordingly, I will curb my responses a tad.

I agree completely with you about Christians in general. But limiting it to only Christians is wrong on your part, it is universal that about 80% of all people don't really understand what it is they are into. But they will be judged based on who and what they are, something we couldn't understand.
Ok. I was mainly trying to convey that this "We are the true Christians; we're right, your wrong" debate amoungst Christians seems very unconvincing from the outside looking in.

I guess you never seen 2 athiests in a bar fight, and then pulled out knives on each other?
I bet this wasn't about some spiritual/philosophical debate!
Like I said, just check out the difference in harmony between atheists/agnostics vs theists on this forum.

Oh and religion is run by, and created by the guidance of man.
I fully agree.
Tell me then please how it is that you do not follow a religion? (You can deny the dictionary definition if you want, but then we are merely making up definitions to suit our purposes).

Gilgamesh wrote:
Like I said, Christianity wouldn't exist today if it wasn't for the history of those mainstream churches. Your Bible was cannonised, evolved and translated by those very same churches. Your God, as you see it, was conceived by those churches.
riVeRraT responded:
This is your opinion.
I find nothing wrong with Genesis.
So has True Christianity begun with you and your brethren? Does this mean True Christianity is only very young or can you trace a unbroken path of this True Christianity back to Christ and the origins of the Bible?
Do you agree with the Catholic Church's interpretation of Genesis or do you believe in a literal interpretation (we don't have to dwell on this)?

Almost but not quite. I was raised a Christian, but from a very young age decided after reading the Bible that the catholic church was not in the word of God. I was then liberated by being free of that churches beliefs.
Where did those beliefs come from? thats right man.

Once again, I agree that religious beliefs come from man. You say some. I say all.
I am glad that you have broken free of the burden of one belief system, but please explain how it is that you feel that your are no longer burdened?

I still studied the Bible, but for 25 years I remained without believing in God. I gave my heart to Jesus 5 years ago, but didn't feel anything until very recently.
Why the heck did you bother with it then. This sounds like a classic case of parental influence.
You may feel that you escaped that yoke, but unfortunately your parents have predisposed you to religious beliefs in any form. Out of the frying pan into the fire?

My life is fine, I am a very sucessful business man with 5 lovely children. I own a home, and I am debt free, cept for the mortgage. I have all the toys I could want. Why would I need God?
Life is fine for the fortunate atheist and lucky theist alike.
You need God because your upbringing predisposed you to religious beliefs (not to mention the evolutionary predisposition we all have towards religiousity). You shed one spiritual system and fill the maw with another. Maybe a better one, and if so, that is good. Arguably, it is no more true than the other one though. Well that's what we're debating in this thread, isn't it?

Of course I realize that in a heartbeat this could all change, because it is still man. I have decided that when this happens not to blame God for it.
This I really respect. It is essential to temperate religious beliefs with rationale caution and scepticism. I have come across many horror stories from individuals who have given themselves wholly over to churches and have had their lives ruined because ot it.
Sure, God is not to blame.

Hopefully you could see where I am coming from a little bit.
I don't have a problem telling you.
I do see where you are coming from and appreciate you telling me. If I was ever to succumb to religion (and I never rule it out because I acknowledge the very strong emotional element in it) I will follow a path not entirely dissimilar to your own, and hope to find fellow Christians as cool as those in your church.
This message has been edited by Gilgamesh, 05-27-2004 12:47 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by riVeRraT, posted 05-26-2004 10:38 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by riVeRraT, posted 05-27-2004 9:38 AM Gilgamesh has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 116 of 329 (110795)
05-26-2004 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by riVeRraT
05-26-2004 10:38 PM


Re: What true Christains are.
I agree completely with you about Christians in general. But limiting it to only Christians is wrong on your part, it is universal that about 80% of all people don't really understand what it is they are into.
Please read the topic question thoughtfully. The topic is exclusively about the religion of Christianity. The Christ of Christianity is Jesus. That's why we should limit this particular discussion to this religion, Christianity. How can a Muslim, a Jew or a pagan be a true Christian exclusive of the Christ of this particular religion?? Your comment makes about as much sense as to contend that Christians and Pagans are also Muslim, doesn't it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by riVeRraT, posted 05-26-2004 10:38 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by riVeRraT, posted 05-27-2004 9:49 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 117 of 329 (110798)
05-27-2004 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by riVeRraT
05-26-2004 9:20 AM


Re: What is actually necessary to be a Christian
But I agree with you in the fact that there are many a great athiests, who are genuinly nice people, and deserve to "go to heaven". All my closest friends are, and I Love them, no matter what they choose to believe in.
I find it interesting that so many people expect sooo much more leeway from God than they are willing to give one another. Take for example, joining a lodge or fraternity. There are certain set rules of proceedure one must follow and steps to complete, including acknowledging certain things and signing the dotted line. Now, Jesus and the apostles wrote in the books of the NT certain things one must do in order to enter this place called Heaven and to walk through those pearly gates. One must have acknowledged the need of a saviour for dealing with the sin problem. One must acknowledge that Jesus is that Lord and Saviour. Jesus himself told Nicodemus that one must have the spiritual birth and become a spiritual oriented person to see that kingdom, being born again by receiving the spirit of Jesus, the Holy Spirit into one's being. So why, with these clearly laid out steps and rules to follow, should one who refuses to do them ever expect to get into God's club so to speak? You don't just walk into a fraternity house and enjoy all the benefits of it by telling them you've been a good ole joe without meeting the requirements first. Being a good ole joe is nice, but won't get in the club. So with God and his Heaven.
This message has been edited by buzsaw, 05-26-2004 11:21 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by riVeRraT, posted 05-26-2004 9:20 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by jar, posted 05-27-2004 12:30 AM Buzsaw has not replied
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 118 of 329 (110800)
05-27-2004 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by Buzsaw
05-27-2004 12:18 AM


Re: What is actually necessary to be a Christian
Buz
I wonder if you are not confusing what is needed for a Christian to be saved with what is needed for salvation?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Buzsaw, posted 05-27-2004 12:18 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 119 of 329 (110842)
05-27-2004 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by riVeRraT
05-26-2004 10:13 PM


Re: What is actually necessary to be a Christian
quote:
Which goes along with what I am saying. To be a Christian, you must believe in Christ and accept him as your savior.
But this doesn't mean you won't be judged by how you perform the will of the Father.
I definitely agree with you on that point.
Personally, I do expect a certain level of decent behavior from someone who professes to be a Christian.
quote:
I am really starting to dislike the expression "true Christian" as it could have too many meanings, one of them being contradictory.
What is really meant by that expression?
Then we could discuss it better.
From the way I have heard this phrase, and variations of it, used in this forum and outside, it can be a praise or an insult.
Praise when you agree with another Christian's point of view on Bible interpretation, dogma, tradition, etc. and an insult when you don't.
When used as an insult, as in a debate or argument, it can serve as a stumbling block for your target by causing them to doubt their position, beliefs, knowledge, etc.
I've also seen it used by non-Christians when encountering deplorable behavior from a professed Christian.
Variations on a theme: Good Christian, Real Christian, True Christian, etc.
IMO the statement has nothing at all to do with whether one has accepted Christ or not.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by riVeRraT, posted 05-26-2004 10:13 PM riVeRraT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by IrishRockhound, posted 05-27-2004 9:45 AM purpledawn has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 120 of 329 (110844)
05-27-2004 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by jar
05-26-2004 11:08 PM


Re: What is actually necessary to be a Christian
Interesting, are you Christian?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by jar, posted 05-26-2004 11:08 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by jar, posted 05-27-2004 10:11 AM riVeRraT has not replied

  
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