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Author Topic:   What is a True Christian?
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 136 of 329 (111309)
05-28-2004 11:06 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by wmscott
05-27-2004 5:05 PM


Thank you for that link. I expressed myself incorrectly due to my ignorance on the subject with Jehovah witness.
I did some studying of it, instead of just taking someone's word for it. It was expressed to me correctly, but I mis-interpreted it.
The Holy spirit you believe in is not the same one I believe in.
You do not think the Holy Spirit is a person, just an active force. Not part of the trinity.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Jehovah witnesses do not believe that the Holy Spirit dwells inside them.
Also, if you were to visit my church, and your "elders" found out, you would be expelled from your religion?
Your own doctrine from that link contradicts itself IMO.
JESUS spoke of the holy spirit as a "helper," and he said it would teach, guide, and speak. (John 14:16, 26; 16:13) The Greek word he used for helper (para'kletos) is in the masculine gender. So when Jesus referred to what the helper would do, he used masculine personal pronouns. (John 16:7, 8) On the other hand, when the neuter Greek word for spirit (pneu'ma) is used, the neuter pronoun "it" is properly employed.
So its not a person because its masculine?
A helper to me sounds like a person.
Someone who teaches, guides, and speaks, sounds like a person to me.
I can tell you from my own personal experience, that the Holy Spirit dwells inside me. It guides me through most of my life. The only time it doesn't is when I take control of my own life. When I am not performing God's will. (I never said I was perfect, I just do the best I can).
This all pertains to the topic, as it helps define what a True Christian is.
Also, do you consider Jesus Christ, Lord?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by wmscott, posted 05-27-2004 5:05 PM wmscott has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by wmscott, posted 05-29-2004 10:15 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
wmscott
Member (Idle past 6247 days)
Posts: 580
From: Sussex, WI USA
Joined: 12-19-2001


Message 137 of 329 (111434)
05-29-2004 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by riVeRraT
05-28-2004 11:06 PM


Dear Riverrat;
quote:
You do not think the Holy Spirit is a person, just an active force. Not part of the trinity. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Jehovah witnesses do not believe that the Holy Spirit dwells inside them. Also, if you were to visit my church, and your "elders" found out, you would be expelled from your religion?
Correct, there is no Trinity, it is not a biblical doctrine. Here is a link to a post I made on it, http://EvC Forum: Jesus/God the same? -->EvC Forum: Jesus/God the same? see post 14. That is the difference between our viewpoints on the holy spirit, the Trinity is a post biblical doctrine which is why it isn't taught or explained in the Bible. The holy spirit is God's power or influence, it is how he does things, so of course it has abilities like a being since God is behind it directing it. On the dwelling of the holy spirit, (1 Corinthians 3:16) "Do YOU not know that YOU people are God's temple, and that the spirit of God dwells in YOU?" so yes we do. No I would not visit your church unless it was to give a talk on something like finding true Christianity. To just simply attend your church would be practicing interfaith, or becoming yoked or forming a connection with your religion which would be wrong since it is in conflict with what the Bible teaches on points such as the Trinity. (2 Corinthians 6:14-17) "Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Belial? Or what portion does a faithful person have with an unbeliever? And what agreement does God's temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: "I shall reside among them and walk among [them], and I shall be their God, and they will be my people." "'Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves,' says Jehovah, 'and quit touching the unclean thing'"; "'and I will take YOU in.'"" The biblical command is clear in this verse, true Christians can not be joining themselves to religions that claim to be christian but fail to follow the Word of god. As a true Christian it is my endeavor for you to join me in the truth and not for me to join you in your religion.
quote:
Your own doctrine from that link contradicts itself IMO. "The Greek word he used for helper (para'kletos) is in the masculine gender." So its not a person because its masculine?
No, it is not a contradiction, it is a grammar thing. It is God's spirit and he is referred to in the masculine gender so the spirit is too. Plus many things that are not persons are referred to in genders such as 'she is fine ship and handles the waves well'. The personification of the holy spirit as a person is just done to fill out what would otherwise be the third empty seat in the Trinity doctrine, remove the Trinity and there is no need to see the holy spirit as a person.
quote:
I can tell you from my own personal experience, that the Holy Spirit dwells inside me.
I find in talking to members of the many conflicting christian religions in existence today, that when you show them that what they belive is in conflict with scripture, they almost always fall back on an emotional response, "I know what I believe is right because I am born a again" or "I felt the power of the holy spirit". While true Christianity is backed by scripture. (2 Timothy 3:16-17) "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work." I don't believe anything that can't be logically supported by scriptures, don't make the mistake of supporting your beliefs on a feeling or personal belief. I have seen many make this mistake and it is a big reason why there are so many conflicting religions that claim to be christian.
quote:
do you consider Jesus Christ, Lord?
Of course.
Have to go pack my bags, I'll reply to your next post when I get back.
Wm. Scott Anderson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by riVeRraT, posted 05-28-2004 11:06 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by riVeRraT, posted 05-29-2004 7:59 PM wmscott has replied

  
Petra
Inactive Member


Message 138 of 329 (111471)
05-29-2004 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by purpledawn
05-24-2004 8:52 AM


Re: to purpledawn
Sorry this reply came a bit late. I've been busy this week. Let's see...
quote:
So by what criteria can we mortals judge?
Matthew 7:1-2
JUDGE not, that you be not judged.
For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.
Jesus spoke to his disciples in
Luke 6:37-38
"Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you."
1 1 Corinthians 4:5
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one's praise will come from God.
quote:
By your definition all Christians making that claim are true Christians whether they believe in evolution or creationism, or a young earth or old earth; correct?
I don't know if God will even look at the minor differences we find so significant, such as creationism or evolution.
quote:
If true, then Christians should respect each other and shouldn't be slinging mud, right?
You are very right about that one! I must sadly conclude that even on Christian forums, there is a lot of mud slinging. I'll try not to do so. I don't like it, that's for sure.
quote:
Kinda goes back to the post with the footballer and tennis. If a Christian says he has entrusted his life to Jesus Christ, but his behavior is deplorable, doesn't that negate his claim?
Maybe it just shows that he/she is only human. When you are a Christian, and you behave like that, God will let you know it's not approved of. He'll do so through his Word, of maybe He'll allow something to occur in that person's life to put his attention to that wrong behaviour. That way the person can change it.
If that person is really a true christian, he/she will change it.
The bible says this about certain behaviour:
Ephesians 4:29-32
Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers.
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice.
And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you.
Ephesians 5:3-5
But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints;
neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks.
For this you know,* that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
Ephesians 5:8-10
For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light
(for the fruit of the Spirit* is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), finding out what is acceptable to the Lord.
What could happen if you don't?
Ephesians 5:6
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
quote:
If I claim to be a good writer, but my posts are filled with misspellings, lack of punctuation, run-on sentences, and no capitalizaion; wouldn't you question my claim?
Yeah, I would.
quote:
If one who has entrusted his life to Jesus Christ should act Christlike, what is Christlike?
See verses above. That's a small part of christlike behaviour.
You can find a lot about what Christlike behaviour is in the bible. Must non-believers know exactly what kinda behaviour that is hence they always know exactly when a Christian does something he/she is not supposed to do.
Thank you for your time.

1Cor 1:25 "Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by purpledawn, posted 05-24-2004 8:52 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by purpledawn, posted 05-29-2004 7:36 PM Petra has not replied

  
Petra
Inactive Member


Message 139 of 329 (111472)
05-29-2004 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Percy
05-24-2004 9:01 AM


Re: to purpledawn
please read my quote again
it contains the answer to your question.
A Christian can claim another is not a true Christian, so what? He/she is only human.

1Cor 1:25 "Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Percy, posted 05-24-2004 9:01 AM Percy has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 140 of 329 (111493)
05-29-2004 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Petra
05-29-2004 4:47 PM


Judge Not
I don't feel the scripture from Matthew and Luke really says don't ever judge, but instead how you judge others is how you will be judged. Along the lines of "if you don't want something done to you, then don't do it to others."
In reality we have to make judgments about people everyday or at least every other day. I have to judge whether someone is lying to me or not. I have to judge whether someone is trustworthy or not. But, if I make these judgments superficially, then that is how I will be judged.
quote:
Must non-believers know exactly what kinda behaviour that is hence they always know exactly when a Christian does something he/she is not supposed to do.
It is not for the purpose of saying "Oh you did something wrong." It is more to the point of, if this person responds in this manner are they really a Christian? Can I trust what they are saying concerning scripture or anything else pertaining to Christianity?
quote:
Maybe it just shows that he/she is only human.
Making mistakes is human, but I don't agree that being human is an excuse for bad behavior. I have met people who don't have Christ in their life who have shown better Christlike behavior than I have seen in some Christians.
quote:
You can find a lot about what Christlike behaviour is in the bible.
Yes, the Bible does say alot about behavior, but unfortunately many Christians don't like to be held accountable to their own standards. That's why I asked what is considered to be Christlike behavior. I know what is in the Bible, but is that what Christians on this thread consider to be Christlike?

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Petra, posted 05-29-2004 4:47 PM Petra has not replied

  
johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5591 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 141 of 329 (111494)
05-29-2004 7:43 PM


True Worshippers shall worship the Father in Spirit and Truth.
I thought the Father seeks people to worship him in spirit and in truth, I just find it interesting if speaking in an unknown tongue according to Paul edifies one's spirit, not the church, is part of worshipping the Father, cause it edifies the believer, etc...In truth cause your worshipping the Father in the spirit, (in the spirit of truth), etc...
P.S. Too me its quite awesome that without saying a prayer in words you understand, you can be worshipping God, and be edified within your spirit, cause your worshipping The Father. If your saying repetitive prayers and are not being edified in ones spirit, you might consider how the illiterate believers were edified by the gift of tongues(Paul himself said he didn't understand the words(saying how would this edify the church), (but was edified in his spirit, so its to the edifying of the person), and its interesting how it pleased God that by the foolishness of the preaching of the gospel to save them that believe, because by the wisdom of this world they believed not, etc...I enjoy the fundementalists too, cause they are edifying the church(enjoy listening to Pastor Cole, etc...) but feel its the Charasmatics that about the edifying of the person, in the gift of tongues, etc...If your a true worshipper, in the spirit, its not how perfect one forms their prayers but it might well be the worship in words one doesn't even understand, cause your worshipping God in the spirit and your bypassing your mind and worshipping in the spirit of truth, but what I find interesting is that the believer is spiritually edified, etc...
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 142 of 329 (111498)
05-29-2004 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by wmscott
05-29-2004 10:15 AM


I do believe that the bible teaches us nothing of religion, only Gods word, so how could it tell you in its scriptures about going to someone else's church. If its Christian, its ok. You don't have to like it.
No, it is not a contradiction, it is a grammar thing. It is God's spirit and he is referred to in the masculine gender so the spirit is too. Plus many things that are not persons are referred to in genders such as 'she is fine ship and handles the waves well'. The personification of the holy spirit as a person is just done to fill out what would otherwise be the third empty seat in the Trinity doctrine, remove the Trinity and there is no need to see the holy spirit as a person.
Thats your interpretation of it. The Holy Spirit was also called a counseler. Sounds more and more like a person.
Either way its not really that important that you feel as though he's not a person. Its that you don't have him in you. (maybe not you but most Jehovah witnesses I've meet).
If my wife would have listened to your teachings, my step child would have never recieved a blood transfusion when he was born, and died. Now he is alive and well, and is in the spirit. A jehovah witness would have rather witnessed his death.
Now Jesus is Lord, go back 20 years and see if the Jehovah witnesses thought Jesus was Lord.
I know a secret. Your doctrines were changed by a spirit filled christian, so that Jesus could become Lord.
Enjoy your trip.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by wmscott, posted 05-29-2004 10:15 AM wmscott has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by wmscott, posted 06-14-2004 5:47 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 143 of 329 (111554)
05-30-2004 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by riVeRraT
05-26-2004 9:16 AM


Re: Yes!
quote:
The moral of that point is to be careful, and always check in with God.
He does answer all prayers, and protects you from evil, after all.
I can only really speak for myself.
I think asgara's point was, though, that if people can be filled with a demon spirit and completely believe that it is the holy spirit, then it doesn't matter how "careful" an individual is, right?
When you think you are checking in with God, maybe you are checking in with the demon.
How do you know it's God and not a demon that is making you think it's god?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by riVeRraT, posted 05-26-2004 9:16 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by riVeRraT, posted 05-30-2004 6:40 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 144 of 329 (111556)
05-30-2004 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by riVeRraT
05-26-2004 10:38 PM


Re: What true Christains are.
quote:
I guess you never seen 2 athiests in a bar fight, and then pulled out knives on each other?
No, I have never seen this ever in my life.
Maybe because I don't go to bars much, and I certainly don't have any atheist friends who are in the habit of getting drunk at bars nor do they carry knives.
If you think that atheists are more prone to crazy drunken violence, then why are the prisons filled with Christians and other believers instead of non-believers?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by riVeRraT, posted 05-26-2004 10:38 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by riVeRraT, posted 05-30-2004 6:42 PM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 145 of 329 (111557)
05-30-2004 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by riVeRraT
05-26-2004 10:38 PM


Re: What true Christains are.
quote:
I still studied the Bible, but for 25 years I remained without believing in God. I gave my heart to Jesus 5 years ago, but didn't feel anything until very recently. My life is fine, I am a very sucessful business man with 5 lovely children. I own a home, and I am debt free, cept for the mortgage. I have all the toys I could want. Why would I need God?
Because you fear death?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by riVeRraT, posted 05-26-2004 10:38 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by riVeRraT, posted 05-30-2004 6:42 PM nator has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 146 of 329 (111605)
05-30-2004 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by nator
05-30-2004 10:17 AM


Re: Yes!
By knowing Gods word.
I can't really answer that completely. I don't know what it is like to be demon spirit filled.
For myself it is obvious, but for others I cannot answer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by nator, posted 05-30-2004 10:17 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by nator, posted 06-03-2004 9:13 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 147 of 329 (111608)
05-30-2004 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by nator
05-30-2004 10:29 AM


Re: What true Christains are.
Wow did you miss the bus on that one.
You think that all athiest do not fight then, is that your claim?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by nator, posted 05-30-2004 10:29 AM nator has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 148 of 329 (111609)
05-30-2004 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by nator
05-30-2004 10:33 AM


Re: What true Christains are.
I can't wait to die now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by nator, posted 05-30-2004 10:33 AM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Unseul, posted 05-30-2004 9:08 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
Unseul
Inactive Member


Message 149 of 329 (111632)
05-30-2004 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by riVeRraT
05-30-2004 6:42 PM


Re: What true Christains are.
I think that sort of explains what Schraf was getting at. You have convinced yourself that the end doesnt ever come, fear of that end may well be what drove you to find that explaination (you'd be surprised at how many people who say they dont believe in god still believe in an afterlife of some sort)
Unseul

Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life....
Do unto others before they do unto you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by riVeRraT, posted 05-30-2004 6:42 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by riVeRraT, posted 05-30-2004 10:38 PM Unseul has not replied

  
johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5591 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 150 of 329 (111645)
05-30-2004 9:46 PM


Christian's different parts of the body, same spirit!
I see the fundementalists, Charasmatics different parts of the church that Peter built, cause of the faith in Christ.
P.S. The bible says greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world, so if greater is he in you, then your a temple of the Holy Spirit, but it says many gifts, same spirit, etc,...
I agree though with all this about letting Jesus into your heart, your kinda putting the cart ahead of the horse, cause you come to Christ for forgiveness, and its the Father that sends the Holy Ghost in his Son's name. The apostles found some that believed didn't recieve the baptism of the Holy Ghost, even though they believed and was baptised in Water, but needed the laying on of hands, etc... I see the verse saying that Christ is come in the flesh, so feel your one in spirit, through Christ, so no one can come to the Father in Spirit unless they are born of the Holy Spirit, and that speaking in tongues is one of the spiritual gifts, some recieve the gift of preaching, teaching, prophecy, so love all the Christian brethren that are all one in the Spirit through Christ, to the edifying of the brethren church, but believe that the Holy Spirit also is the comforter and this is what makes it interesting about the comforting of the believer, in the edification of the believer in those that recieve the gift of tongues. I feel when believers come together God is there too, cause where two or more are gathered together in his name their he is, so were back to where believers should come together in his name, and this is the reason believers believe cause they know that greater is he that is in them than is in the world, its the love that is greater than that makes the Christian faith real, etc...
This message has been edited by whatever, 05-30-2004 08:49 PM

  
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