What is a True Christian?

I always "felt that" even before I believed in Jesus.
So I was never afraid of death, and wouldn't use that as a reason to go find God.I am a realistic person. If I believe in God, and he doesn't exist, then I am a looneytoon, and I have created many things with in the boundrys of my own mind. But enjoying it none the less. lol

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By knowing Gods word.

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So, the way you can tell that you are not currently being fooled by a demon into thinking you are following it is "by knowing God's word'?What does that mean, exactly?

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I can't really answer that completely. I don't know what it is like to be demon spirit filled.

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How do you know?How do you know that you haven't been demon-filled and the demon tricked you into thinking that you were God-filled?

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For myself it is obvious, but for others I cannot answer.

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But this doesn't make sense.You said that demons could trick you into thinking that they were God, but now you say that you know for yourself if you are demon or god filled.If you were being tricked, then by definition you would think you were God-filled when you were actually demon-filled, and you wouldn't know it.If this is possible as you say it is, you couldn't know when it was happening.

Listen dude, don't get caught in the the trap of trying to twist my words around. I explained cleary what was told to me about being demon filled.For me its simple to ask God if its him or not. Once you know the truth, it is inside you and you cannot be fooled. The truth is built into us from God.John 8:32
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."Hebrews 8:10
This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.Hebrews 10:16
"This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds."[ 10:16 Jer. 31:33]John 3:21
But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."John 4:24
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."Unless you have experienced this truth, it is hard for me to describe.
The word truth becomes much more than just a statement meaning the opposite of false. It becomes a feeling from deep within yourself, and then a way of life. The Holy Spirit is truth, and it dwells inside you . Its all there inside you, you just have to go get it. Its so simple, yet so hard, because you only have to do a few things, but they are hard to do.I stated that what the guy saw was someone else being demon filled. This is what God told him. Whether that person was being fooled or not is an unknown to me.I could only make an assumption that it is possible to be demon filled. How the person feels or why it is happening is unknown to me.
The point was that where ever God is, so is the devil.One could also be mis-lead by a group of people with beliefs not in line with the bible. This is why the bible is so important. It is the way to find out the truth. It is the best guide we have for finding the way of the truth.It worked for me. So either I am a victim of the greatest scam on the face of the earth, have been fooled countless times by scriptures, I am psychotic delusional(I am not talking about seeing things, just feeling), all the prayers that were answered are figments of my imagination, the blessings I have recieved since tithing are merely a coinsidence, people tell me I look ten years younger and wonder what I did to myself was just a conisidence, the peace I feel within myself is self-inflicted, the persecution I have recieved isn't real, I could go on and on, or I accepted Jesus, found God, and the Holy Spirit dwells inside me because I want to fulfill his will.I'll take the second option of course, lol.

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Listen dude, don't get caught in the the trap of trying to twist my words around.

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I'm not twisting your words around.

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I explained cleary what was told to me about being demon filled.

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Well, I'm afraid it wasn't very clear to me.

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For me its simple to ask God if its him or not. Once you know the truth, it is inside you and you cannot be fooled. The truth is built into us from God.

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Unless you have experienced this truth, it is hard for me to describe.

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The word truth becomes much more than just a statement meaning the opposite of false. It becomes a feeling from deep within yourself, and then a way of life. The Holy Spirit is truth, and it dwells inside you . Its all there inside you, you just have to go get it. Its so simple, yet so hard, because you only have to do a few things, but they are hard to do.

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The thing is, all of what you just described seems like arbitrary, made up stuff, no offense intended.I mean, how do you know you aren't just talking to yourself when you think it's God?

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I stated that what the guy saw was someone else being demon filled. This is what God told him. Whether that person was being fooled or not is an unknown to me.

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Then why did you mention it as something that was possible at all?Couldn't the guy who thought the other guy was becoming demon-filled have been demon-filled himself?this kind of stuff can go on forever if you don't have some standards for evidence.All I can say is that the guy who was thought to be demon-filled by the other guy is very lucky he wasn't born during the Dark Ages. There's a great chance that he would have been killed by the all-powerful Christians by now.

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I could only make an assumption that it is possible to be demon filled. How the person feels or why it is happening is unknown to me. The point was that where ever God is, so is the devil.

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Both are assumptions to me, I'm afraid, that are believed only through blind faith.

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One could also be mis-lead by a group of people with beliefs not in line with the bible.

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The thing is, "beliefs not in line with the bible" has changed constantly depending upon the denomination, nation, culture, politics, socioeconomic factors, time in history, etc.

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This is why the bible is so important. It is the way to find out the truth. It is the best guide we have for finding the way of the truth.

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Maybe, maybe not. It all depends on who you are and where and when you live(d).

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It worked for me. So either I am a victim of the greatest scam on the face of the earth, have been fooled countless times by scriptures, I am psychotic delusional(I am not talking about seeing things, just feeling),

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Feelings are funny things. Very maleable and not always the most reliable indicators of reality.

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all the prayers that were answered are figments of my imagination,

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You cannot really use answered prayers as evidence of anything, most likely, because there is something called "confirmation bias". This bias causes us to place weight on "hits" or confiming evidence that supports our belief, while we ignore or discount disconfirming evidence, or "misses".You probably didn't keep records of the things you prayed for, either, and you probably didn't pray for very specific things, kept track of when they were supposed to happen by, and you probably didn't make note of all of your prayers that didn't get answered.You also have probably not considered that your prayers might be answered by a God or gods other than the Christian God you think is answering them. Or perhaps there are invisible alien life forms with superpowers who are causing things to sometimes go in your favor.Or, maybe sometimes your prayers are answered, and sometimes they aren't, because life sometimes goes your way, and sometimes it doesn't, regardless of your prayers.

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the blessings I have recieved since tithing are merely a coinsidence,

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Did you keep track of your blessings before tithing? Might be more confirmation bias here.Or, it could be many other mundane factors that you just aren't paying attention to, such as being a happier person since joining a supportive social group (which happens to be religious) made you more effective at work, so you get more comissions or got a raise, or whatever.

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people tell me I look ten years younger and wonder what I did to myself was just a conisidence, the peace I feel within myself is self-inflicted,

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As a non-believer, I would definitely say your inner peace is self-inflicted.People decide to have inner peace without God all the time. I did. My husband did. A lot of my friends did, too.Don't sell yourself short.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 06-03-2004 03:13 PM

I've noticed you mention this "confirmation bias" a lot. In an attempt to handwave our answered prayers away into your nice comforting pigeon hole. But we would call this "belief". It's very obvious to a doubter, that this is "confirmation bias". I have had "doubt" creep up on me and try to convince me that faith and belief isn't it. But in the end, this will always come down to two simple things; those who have belief, and those who don't.

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I've noticed you mention this "confirmation bias" a lot. In an attempt to handwave our answered prayers away into your nice comforting pigeon hole.

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I'm hardly "handwaving away" anything, mike.Confirmation bias is a pervasive, very real part of the way human minds work, no matter if you like it or not. It is useful for gathering nuts and berries on the savannah, and maybe figuring out if someone you don't know is likely to be friendly or not, but very much gets in the way of determining the real frequency of wished-for evidence of the reality of one's beliefs.I am NOT saying that your prayers aren't being answered.I am simply saying that without the kind of record keeping and exactuitude that counters the very natural and normal confirmation bias that we all use every day, you have no idea at all if your prayers are being "answered" at a rate greater than plain old random chance would predict.You can believe what you like, but unless and until you put your answered prayer claims under some simple experimental controls, they can't mean anything to an outside observer wishing to determine if they are, in fact, being answered or not.

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But we would call this "belief". It's very obvious to a doubter, that this is "confirmation bias".

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It is very likely that it is bias, yes.Judging by the stories you have told about your answered prayers, you are just as subject to it as the rest of us.

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I have had "doubt" creep up on me and try to convince me that faith and belief isn't it. But in the end, this will always come down to two simple things; those who have belief, and those who don't.

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but mike, don't you want to know if your answered prayers are happening at a rate greater than chance?Don't you want to know if you are fooling yourself?I would.

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Critical thinkers and skeptics don't create answers just to manage their anxiety--Karla McLaren

But schraf, that is part of the great divide. You can not impart you thinking processes to others. There are a large number of people who don't what to know.There is a very interesting article in the latest "Skeptical Inquirer" from a former new age guru and author. They have made the transition to the skeptical side and are not trying to figure out how to allow the two camps to communicate.It is a useful insite into a viewpoint that is alien to us.I will, when I get a bit of time, after this move, do a review of it. S/he is writing a book too.

You would know if you were close to God yourself. Because it is, anything is possible. Because I know the guy pretty well, I don't feel like he would be demon filled.
If you base your whole life on evidence about God from others, you will never find God.I told you, God is within yourself, you don't need church or anybody (including me) to find him, just the bible as a guide. Ah you fell into that trap as well. "The all powerful Christians" you speak of probably weren't really acting within God's word when they did stuff like that. If people do things that are clearly against Jesus's teachings, then they aren't "in christ" and will be judged for thier actions. Read the bible to find out the answers to that.
It was and is precisly the the reason for me not to be catholic. I am not putting down catholic people(or judging them), just the set of stantards that religion goes by. They seem to have added alot of stuff over the years. It is what works for me. The first was an assumption, the second is not. The bible teaches about where the devil is. [qs] Romans
14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[3] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
[.qs]Sin is orchestrated by the devil. God allows it. You choose whether to act on it or not. Yes yes and yes! That is why you must find the truth yourself. No matter how bad the rest of the world is, God's true word will always be there for you. You are a woman, please tell me you never follow your instincts.
The truth is not maleable, and is 100% reliable. Yes I did. Yes I asked for very specific things.
I will not go into how to pray here. I will say part of praying is abiding in God. That statement makes no logical sense whats so ever. Knowing the bible would help you to understand that. Even not knowing the bible it makes no sense. Prayers are always answered. It just not might be the answer you were looking for, or come within the time you expect it to. The reason for this is always reaveld to you eventually. Yes I keep track of my blessings, and it isn't limited to just work.
I own my own business, and the business has more than tripled since I started tithing 4 months ago.
As far as a supportive social group goes, I belonged to more than I have time for, before I got "saved". In a town where the population is about 3500, and you know 1000 of them, and get along with all of them, my social life was just fine. I am happy for you. But I say it could be better with God. It would only enhance the peace you now have. I had peace before too.God should only enhance your life, not become a burden. Its a positive thing, not a negative thing. If you feel when you are looking for God that it is one of the later, then something is wrong.Don't confuse man with God. The number of "true christians" this thread speaks of, IMO is very few indeed. It is an opinion based on facts.For example, I was watching a priest on the catholic channel last night, and he was trying to tell me that singing and dancing with the Lord is not the way God intended for us to worshipp him. That we should be quiet and in solitude. I won't quote all the passages in the bible but here is the way the first "christians" reacted when the Holy Spirit fell on them:Acts 1
4On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5For John baptized with[1] water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit."Acts 2
The Holy Spirit Comes at Pentecost1When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[1] as the Spirit enabled them.
5Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. 7Utterly amazed, they asked: "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? 8Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language? 9Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11(both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs--we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!" 12Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, "What does this mean?"
13Some, however, made fun of them and said, "They have had too much wine.[2] "(They were drunk in the spirit)Psalm 150
4 praise him with tambourine and dancing,
praise him with the strings and flute,Psalm 149:3
Let them praise his name with dancing and make music to him with tambourine and harp.Also here is the way in which I think we as christians should live.Acts 4
The Believers Share Their Possessions32All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. 33With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all. 34There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.If the whole world was like this, what a wonderful place it would be indeed.If I was to listen to that priest on TV, I would never experience the true way to worship God. Now look how many people are following that way that the preist was teaching. Look at what they are missing. Their own instruction manual (the Bible) teaches them this, but they don't do it. What does this tell you about religion, and man?I know I just opened up a can of worms, but I don't care.

One other thing, why would you even suggest me being demon filled if you are a non-believer? And then try to argue that point with me.

I don't have time to anwer all that I want to at the moment, but I will address this...

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Prayers are always answered. It just not might be the answer you were looking for, or come within the time you expect it to. The reason for this is always reaveld to you eventually.

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This is post-hoc reasoning.http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Post_hoc"Post hoc, also known as coincidental correlation , is a logical fallacy which assumes, or asserts, that if one thing happens after another, the first must be the cause of the second. It is a particularly subtle, and tempting, error because temporal sequence is basic to causality."A true test of if prayers are answered or not is to be very specific about what a "successfully" answered prayer looks like. What, when, who, etc.You must also take into account all other factors besides God that might account for this very specific thing happening and rule them out as causes.

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The truth is not maleable, and is 100% reliable.

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But one's feelings are not 100% reliable at determining the truth.Are you saying that your feelings are representative of Truth?What if I give you a drug that makes you feel paranoid and that people hate you. Does that mean that people, in reality, actually hate you?

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That statement makes no logical sense whats so ever.

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Sure it does.You have no way of diferentiating between your God that you think is answering prayers and another god or gods that may be actually answering them.The evidence for any of them is the same; your assurance and your feeling that you are correct.My problem is this.There are plenty of people who believe just a ferverently that they have been abducted by aliens as you believe that the Christian God exists.Thousands of otherwise regular folks can give evidence, testimony of very powerful emotional experiences, and they truly believe with all their hearts that they have been abducted by aliens.Why should I believe you and not them?

lol. This is a theory too. If you believe in it, you put your faith there. I told you, very specific prayers have been answered. Also there are miracles that do occure, for which there could be no other explaination.
Some of my prayers even get answered in a split second. As far as something happening for which there could be no other reason, that sounds like something, somebody made up to convince you that God doesn't exist.
Anything is possible at any given moment, thereby makeing it impossible for a answered prayer to ever have a logical reason, or for it to be from God.
So you accept a theory over faith, not much difference.But when the thing that happens (answered prayer) that has a improbability of millions to one, then it should be taken seriously.
In all actuallity, I had better chances at winning the lotto. No, I am saying the truth is a representitive of my feelings.
The truth is more than what you imply it to be. I won't get into why this is not logical, but since your so smart, you should be able to figure it.
Start with, if any God was all powerful, why would he let people not think it was him? You know for a fact that they really feel this way?
I wouldn't be able to judge that. What they say, and what really happens are 2 different things.Stop using people to keep you away from God. I specifically told you not believe me. I told you to check out Jesus.
Do you know the bible and all that it is?
All the answers you seek are in the bible, and in your own heart, not mine.Many people claim many things. How much of this is true? How many "true Christians" are there really? What chance do you really have of finding God?I find most non-believers to be more true to their heart than believers. Its a shame cause those people would make awesome Christians.

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I specifically told you not [to] believe me. I told you to check out Jesus.
Do you know the bible and all that it is?
All the answers you seek are in the bible, and in your own heart, not mine.
  —riverrat

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Just thought I would jump in with my own two cents. I think this quote gets to the heart of the matter. Riverrat doesn't seem to be saying that he has found a universal truth within christianity, but instead he has found a personal truth that only he is able to experience. Due to the subjective nature of his experiences, and lack of objective proof, riverrat is only able to describe what he feels. Riverrat does believe that his religious experiences can be felt by other people, but only by other people subjecting themselves to similar spiritual openness that he has gone through.At the same time, riverrat should recognize that people have also found personal truth within different religions and philosophies. For him, christianity and the teachings of Jesus are the be all, end all. Judging by how this has affected his life, I am glad that riverrat has found this path in life. Happiness is a hard thing to find sometimes, and people shouldn't be discouraged for finding this happiness. However, at times it seems that adherents to religious sects (christianity among them) claim that they alone hold the path to spiritual salvation and total happiness. In my opinion, this just doesn't make sense given the number of non-christians and non-religious people who have fulfilling and happy lives.Sometimes I find myself putting more emphasis on objective evidence and objective experience when judging subjective issues. I have found over time that sometimes subjective judgements aren't weak at all, just incapable of making people come to an agreement on bigger issues and questions of philosophy. It is only when subjective judgements impinge on objective truths that the laws of logic and reason step in, such as in describing the natural world around us. I am not trying to push my personal philosophy onto anyone (including Schraf and riverrat), just trying to explain my own philosophical stance in this little corner of the internet in the hopes of expanding this discussion.

Thank you speak beatifully. One thing though. There is a big difference between Christianity and other religions, but the main carachter "God" I believe to all be the same God. Just that with christianity, the only way to him is through Jesus. The proof is in the Holy Spirit. To my knowledge (which is limited) other religions do not have written that they can have such a spirit be with them as a counselor.I also believe that accepting Jesus isn't the only way into heaven, as all would be judged by God based on their life here on earth. So it is possible that he would make exceptions, especially for those who haven't had a chance to learn about him. This includes people who got miss-guided by others, and people in foreign countrys that never heard of him.I must point out that I also had a happy and fulfilling life before I got saved. This only enhanced it. It's supposed to make you better, and be something that you want to do. As in Acts 4 the first groups of Christians to recieve the Holy Spirit, look at the way they were living, in complete harmony with themselves and each other.So before I got saved I was at peace and happy, but I could still dis-like people, and have enemies. I have since forgiven all my enemies, even as they develop. One of my enemies is now a good friend because I decided to forgive him, and brought the gospel to his face, and now we get along. He also forgave me, after I did this.
There is awesome power in forgiveness.Later.

Random chance doesn't cater for specific requests. What would chance help for anyway though? Aren't the chances of abiogenesis impossible? What are the chances of us existing? I guess the odds are against these things, yet you claim we still came about in this way. So how accurate or useful is chance? If I ask for a specific request and it happens, what are the chances of that? I guess the odds might be 50/50. But chance would be a fine thing, yet according to chance we don't exist, so how reliable is random chance anyway? But I am not fooling myself. I cannot have had these answered prayers in this way. Even chance is not catering for the outcomes. How can I be fooling myself when I have the truth?Random chance cannot point itself into one area and focus on it. It's like me winning the lottery, if I win it one week then I guess it is random chance, but what if I win it every week for three years, would you still think of it as chance? Can random chance focus like this? And even prayers that seemingly go unanswered - you cannot know if the answer is not according to God's will. It comes down to belief again. Now who tells us it comes down to belief?

About nine months ago I had three very important and specific prayer requests answered the very next day all within a week. After this, I decided to write my prayers in my journal so I could remember exactly what I prayed for when it was answered. About a month or so later I desperately needed help and encouragement in a certain situation. I wrote my prayer down. The next day sitting in chapel the speaker repeated with the same exact vocabulary my problem as I had written it and the solution. I have had many other prayers answered in all kinds of ways. I had another specific prayer answered 2 days ago in a most awesome and amazing way!!! (I met a girl...!) This answer came less than a week after my prayer. Today as I was sitting on the lifeguard stand I tried and tried to remember a prayer that God had never answered (some are still pending, but I am patient). I couldn't think of one. (I'm sure there must be some from my younger more vulnerable years) Off the top of my head I can think of 8 unique specific prayer requests this year that have been answered the next day and in such a way that chance does not factor in.If you pray in full faith and for the right reason that a mountain will be dropped into the sea, it will be so.I have also heard several missionary speakers in school chapels this year. Some of these people's lives are on the line 24 hours a day because of their objective to spread the gospel of Christ. Many of their prayers were answered in ways that are nothing short of miraculous (neither chance nor reason can explain them).If one really wants to see God work in amazing ways, all one needs do is get outside one's comfort zone and walk completely by faith according to His will.This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 06-04-2004 10:13 PM

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"It is the glory of God to conceal a thing, but the honor of kings to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2