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Author Topic:   What is a True Christian?
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 166 of 329 (112868)
06-04-2004 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Loudmouth
06-04-2004 6:23 PM


Re: Yes!
At the same time, riverrat should recognize that people have also found personal truth within different religions and philosophies. For him, christianity and the teachings of Jesus are the be all, end all. Judging by how this has affected his life, I am glad that riverrat has found this path in life. Happiness is a hard thing to find sometimes, and people shouldn't be discouraged for finding this happiness. However, at times it seems that adherents to religious sects (christianity among them) claim that they alone hold the path to spiritual salvation and total happiness. In my opinion, this just doesn't make sense given the number of non-christians and non-religious people who have fulfilling and happy lives.
There are two kinds of happiness really. A great degree of happiness can be obtained by believers and unbelievers alike through morality, humility, conventional wisdom, common sense, and wonderful life experiences. Whether one accepts Christianity or not there are certain principles of life that make life great. These principles are completely outlined in the Bible, but God has also written them on the hearts and minds of all men. For example, I heard a missionary speak about her work in Papua New Guinea with the Sipekeewam (sp?) tribe. These people had lived the in isolation and in the same way for thousands of years. They never new of an outside world, a white man, an internal combustion engine, or anything of the like. Yet when this missionary first communicated with the tribe leader, he explained to her the rules that their tribe followed. These rules included most of the ten commandments (except the ones concerning God). The people also lived according to the rule, do unto others as you would have others do unto you. These people were generally happy with their life in the jungle. As are many people in many other religions who abide by these universal principles that lead to happiness.
However, there is another and far greater happiness that IS the monopoly of Christians. It comes from the understanding of God's infinite greatness of character, our comparitive obscurity, and his great love and ultimate humble sacrifice for us. It comes from a personal relationship with Him. We know that he is willing to do anything for our benefit and works all things together for our good if we love him. No other religion involves this reciprocal love relationship with God that Christianity does. There is no love relationship in nirvana or with vishnu or the brama bull. There is no love relationship with allah. There is no love relationship with a personal God in animism or dieism or any other form of religion. All other forms of religion may contain the universal principles of life that Christianity does, but they also all contain a system of works by which a greater end is achieved. Christianity is the only religion where God has done all the work for us. All we have to do is learn to accept his gift and enjoy our relationship with Him.

"It is the glory of God to conceal a thing, but the honor of kings to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Loudmouth, posted 06-04-2004 6:23 PM Loudmouth has not replied

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 167 of 329 (112887)
06-05-2004 4:08 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by Hangdawg13
06-04-2004 11:57 PM


There are two kinds of happiness really.
But once again, we get back to the same ad-hoc reasoning that led you to conclude that Christianity isn't a religion simply because it's the faith that you adhere to, unlike the others.
What you're saying is that there's the kind of happiness that comes from satisfaction with a society that at once protects people and allows for personal choice; and then there's the kind of happiness that comes from religious self-delusion.
Just because you have different delusions than other religions - God talks to you, you're in a love relationship with him, etc. - doesn't make your religion fundamentally different than any other. Just because War and Peace is its own unique story doesn't mean that it stops being a book.
Christianity is the only religion where God has done all the work for us.
The problem for you is, this isn't a universal view of Christianity. Slavic Orthodoxy, for instance, holds a synergistic view - personal volition is required to attain grace and salvation. God doesn't "do all the work".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Hangdawg13, posted 06-04-2004 11:57 PM Hangdawg13 has not replied

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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 168 of 329 (112968)
06-05-2004 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by mike the wiz
06-04-2004 9:19 PM


Re: Yes!
quote:
Random chance doesn't cater for specific requests.
I think you misunderstand.
Random chance isn't the "cause" of anything.
There are many causes for many things.
There is a wonderful experiment that has been done many times which demonstrates our propensity for confirmation bias.
The Newsletter of The North Texas Skeptics
Randi performed an experiment involving horoscopes. Twelve students at Queens Community College in New York were contacted by the staff of NBC's Dateline news program and asked to supply their names, their birthdays, and their places of birth. Weeks later, they were brought into an auditorium where they were introduced to Randi, who billed himself as an expert on astrology. He then handed each of the students a personalized horoscope based on the information they gave to the Dateline staff weeks earlier. All 12 of the students considered the horoscopes to be accurate.
As the students marveled at the accuracy of their personalized horoscopes, Randi asked them to switch their horoscopes with each other and read them. It didn't take long for the students to realize that they'd been had: each student received the same "personalized" horoscope. This horoscope consisted of little more than generalizations such as "you are willing to help others" that Randi himself borrowed from other horoscopes. Randi then told the baffled students, "Take it from me; it's nonsense. It always has been. It's 4,000 years old; that just shows you how long nonsense can last and be respectable."31
The students saw what they wanted to see in the horoscope, and discounted or ignored the inaccuracies. They also did not notice any gaping holes or glaring omissions, because it is just much easier for humans to notice things that happen compared to things that do not happen.
quote:
What would chance help for anyway though? Aren't the chances of abiogenesis impossible?
Certainly not impossible, and there's really no way of calculating the odds.
Remember, the odds of a specific thing happening at a specific time and at a specific place are very small, but the odds of something happening at any place at any time are much higher.
quote:
What are the chances of us existing? I guess the odds are against these things, yet you claim we still came about in this way.
Ah, but the difference is evidence.
We have evidence that we exist that any disinterested observer can test and observe, and through this testing and observation a reasonable conclusion can be drawn that we do, in fact, exist.
I am not saying that God doesn't answer your prayers.
I am just saying that unless you are willing to subject your claim of prayers being answered to normal experimental controls, I am inclined to strongly suspect that your "hit rate" of answered prayers is no greater than chance would predict once we control for post hoc reasoning and confirmation bias.
If God answering yes sometimes and no at other times is indestinguishable from random chance, why pray? The practical outcome is exactly the same.
quote:
So how accurate or useful is chance? If I ask for a specific request and it happens, what are the chances of that?
It depends upon the request.
If you request that the sun rise tomorrow morning, I'd say that your odds of your request being granted is near guaranteed.
If you request that the entire world be peaceful and free of hunger and strife, I'd say the chances of your request being granted are quite low.
Of course, if God was really all-powerful and in charge, the liklihood of something happening would be irrelevant. God could just do it.
I mean, how many millions of people over thousands of years have prayed to God to stop all hunger, and to stop all war, and he has never seen fit to answer a single one of those prayers?
But he seems to listen to you. Why not pray for the end of hunger and war and see if he answers those prayers?
quote:
But I am not fooling myself. I cannot have had these answered prayers in this way.
How do you know?
It isn't the individual answered prayers that prove anything, mike. It is the success rate over time.
People who do not pray have wished-for things happen to them sometimes, and wished-for things not happen sometimes.
People who pray have prayed-for things happen sometimes, and prayed-for things not happen sometimes.
Unless you can show me that your rate of prayed-for things that happened is greater than chance would predict, then the most likely explanation for your perception of a greater-than-chance success rate is the demonstrated, observed, well-understood phenomena of confimation bias and post hoc reasoning.
quote:
How can I be fooling myself when I have the truth?
Are you seriously asking me that?
Let me say what you wrote a different way:
"How can I be wrong when I KNOW I'm right?"
quote:
Random chance cannot point itself into one area and focus on it. It's like me winning the lottery, if I win it one week then I guess it is random chance, but what if I win it every week for three years, would you still think of it as chance?
No, I would take notice of that. If you told me that you prayed for, and received, winning lottery numbers every week, and you told me about them before the lottery was drawn, and there were no evidence of cheating, this discussion would end and I would believe you.
The thing is, the lottery is an example of a random event that is very narrowly defined. The odds can be calculated very easily and accurately, and there is no way to be swayed by confirmation bias or post hoc reasoning.
Either you picked the correct numbers or you didn't. There's no "interpreting" after the fact, there's no reason to account for non-events because we are only interested in a small number of identical, very specific events.
The lottery has exactly the kind of controls on it that I have been talking about.
quote:
And even prayers that seemingly go unanswered - you cannot know if the answer is not according to God's will.
That is post hoc reasoning.
You make up excuses for why a failure is really a success.
What you are saying is that you actually didn't get the winning lottery numbers correct every single week, but you still claim a 100% success rate.
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 06-05-2004 07:54 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by mike the wiz, posted 06-04-2004 9:19 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Hangdawg13, posted 06-06-2004 12:59 AM nator has replied
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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 169 of 329 (112971)
06-05-2004 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Hangdawg13
06-04-2004 10:57 PM


Re: Yes!
Can you be more specific about exactly what the requests were, exactly how you wrote them down and exactly why you think they were fulfilled?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Hangdawg13, posted 06-04-2004 10:57 PM Hangdawg13 has not replied

  
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 170 of 329 (113000)
06-06-2004 12:59 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by nator
06-05-2004 8:46 PM


Re: Yes!
Random chance isn't the "cause" of anything.
There are many causes for many things.
You are right. And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love the Lord and to those who are called according to his purpose. Rom. 8:28
There is a wonderful experiment that has been done many times which demonstrates our propensity for confirmation bias.
I have read a horroscope or two before and it was very obvious to me how they work. They play to people's arrogance by giving general flattering statements about a person. They give qualities that most people have or assume they have or wish they had. In answered prayers however, God often leaves reassuring clues that let you know that He planned your answer specifically for you. Contrary to horroscopes answered prayers never play to my arrogance, but always increase my humility.
If God answering yes sometimes and no at other times is indestinguishable from random chance, why pray? The practical outcome is exactly the same.
There are various reasons why God may not answer a prayer: unaddressed sin, lack of faith, etc. However, assuming a person is in fellowship with God and has faith, God never simply dismisses our prayers.
There are two parts to every prayer: the pettition and the motive behind it. Sometimes God answers the pettition precisely thereby answering the motive, sometimes he does not answer the pettition but answers the motive. As we learn more Bible doctrine and gain the "mind of Christ" our thinking becomes more in line with God's, and our pettions and motives fall into line with his will. An immature Christian may ask God to win the lottery thinking it will bring happiness, but God knows such wealth would ruin him and make him miserable.
And sometimes to show us the stupidity of our request and the false motive behind it he answers the pettition, but not the motive.
A personal example of the last would be a few years ago (I am 18 now) when I was a stupid arrogant hormone driven freshmen, I asked God for something I thought reasonable at the time. I had seen God working in my life in the last year and naively felt like I was very mature. I said to God, "All right. I think I'm fairly spiritually mature, and I really wish I had someone to share life with and to love with all my heart." And I went on... I want to gag thinking of it now... God must have gotten a chuckle from it. My pettition was basically for a girlfriend, my motive was happiness apart from my relationship with God. The next morning, the phone rings and its the most beautiful girl I had ever known (she had recently moved away). She had come for a visit. To make a long story short I was miserably hoplessly in love/lust for a long while and had a stupid empty long distance relationship with her.
You may say this would have happened no matter whether I had prayed that prayer or not, but believing that she was the answer to my prayer was what gave me the... testicular fortitude to go for it. Praying this prayer also taught me great, painful, and unforgettable lessons about true love and true happiness, which I would otherwise have not learned.
If you request that the entire world be peaceful and free of hunger and strife, I'd say the chances of your request being granted are quite low.
Actually the chances of this happening are 100%. In the millineum this will be so, but not in this dispensation.
Of course, if God was really all-powerful and in charge, the liklihood of something happening would be irrelevant. God could just do it.
He can and will, but in this age, the age of the church, God has determined that His power will be expressed through the lives of individual believers. He has allowed pain and suffering, a by-product of sin, in this life to bring into high relief his mercy and love, and the greatness of the eternal life we are stepping into to those who accept Him.
I mean, how many millions of people over thousands of years have prayed to God to stop all hunger, and to stop all war, and he has never seen fit to answer a single one of those prayers?
But he seems to listen to you. Why not pray for the end of hunger and war and see if he answers those prayers?
Why pray for God to do something now that he has already told us he will not do now? Jesus said there will be wars and rumors of wars until I come, but do not be alarmed for these things must come to pass. If God said, "Screw it. Forget the tribulation and the rest of the church age and all of the things I was going to do. I'm going to start my earthly kingdom now," He would be going back on his word. Of course this idea is absurd because God is not bound by time and does not change his mind.
It isn't the individual answered prayers that prove anything, mike. It is the success rate over time.
You desire God to be like a computer. You desire him to be under your control and always give the desired output. You assume that your wisdom is greater than God's.
However, we are like the children to an infinitely superior father. What good father gives a child a candy bar every time he asks for one and never gives him discipline when he deserves it? It is not the number of candy bars a child gets per request that determines if he has a good father, it is how the child grows and matures by his father's loving interaction and discipline that shows how well a father has done his job.
The proof is not in the success rate of prayer over time. This is only an indication of a believer's maturity and conformity to the image of Christ. The proof is in the growth in faith and power in the believer's spiritual life.
Some people expect God to produce a miraculous answer every time they pray. He does this sometimes usually for the purpose of strengthening the faith of that believer. From God's perspective, though, what's so great about a miracle? He has the ability and has excercised the ability to answer all of our prayers simply working things together for our good within the natural order of his creation. This to me is far more amazing than making something appear out of thin air.
He has answered most of our prayers before we pray them. So why pray them if they are already in the process of being answered? We can only profit spiritually by the answers if realize where they came from.
Prayer strengthens our relationship with God and is also a powerful tool. God has determined to answer the prayers offered in faith of those who live according to His will.

"It is the glory of God to conceal a thing, but the honor of kings to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by nator, posted 06-05-2004 8:46 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
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Ziw eht ekima
Inactive Member


Message 171 of 329 (113091)
06-06-2004 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by nator
06-05-2004 8:46 PM


Re: Yes!
The students saw what they wanted to see in the horoscope, and discounted or ignored the inaccuracies.
I've seen these experiments before, but the information the people are given is vague and could describe a lot of things. But we are talking about specific prayer requests.
Remember, the odds of a specific thing happening at a specific time and at a specific place are very small
That's the point though. Specific things happening at a specific time and place are what prayers are. For example, if I want to be healed from a specific illness, it's no good that I recieve any other result than that specific request. Also, what are the chances of spontanious remission?
We have evidence that we exist that any disinterested observer can test and observe, and through this testing and observation a reasonable conclusion can be drawn that we do, in fact, exist.
But that's a fallacy Shrafinater, Our existence doesn't = chance existence without God. I could also use our existence as evidence for us being created by God. It's unfalsifiable. Both are. I certainly know which one is more likely though, that's for sure.
If you request that the entire world be peaceful and free of hunger and strife, I'd say the chances of your request being granted are quite low.
But Christ said "you will always have the poor to give to".
Let me say what you wrote a different way:
"How can I be wrong when I KNOW I'm right?"
Exactly. We know we are right because we have the truth. Why should someone test whether they are eating an apple when they know they are?
How do you know?
It isn't the individual answered prayers that prove anything, mike. It is the success rate over time.
You have it backward. You are not looking at this the right way, you are seeing things backward, like when you read my name. "Proof" is only necessary for those who are not sure. Only someone with doubt will test for proof. S/He who has the truth would believe when all prayers went unanswered.
I mean, how many millions of people over thousands of years have prayed to God to stop all hunger, and to stop all war, and he has never seen fit to answer a single one of those prayers?
But he seems to listen to you. Why not pray for the end of hunger and war and see if he answers those prayers?
But these things must needs be, they are the beginning of sorrows, not by what I say though. I have prayed for such things though, and healings etc..You are right though, he listens to people - and you!
You make up excuses for why a failure is really a success.
What you are saying is that you actually didn't get the winning lottery numbers correct every single week, but you still claim a 100% success rate.
But I do recieve lottery every week, yet I wouldn't pray for such things. You have this backward, willingly. You see, I do not make excuses for prayers unanswered, as it is written, "Ask anything in my name, and if it be according to my will, so shall it be added unto you" (similar words). So, the ingredients for the cake are there to be read, in the ingredients. Nevertheless, my tally would be similar to specific manipulation of events, and similar to a lottery win monthly. I never get unanswered prayers, just un-interpreted answers. In Daniel, it says when he prayed, God had already "sent" the answer, and the evil spirit in the air stopped the request. Except you are willing to recieve, your doubt will hinder you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by nator, posted 06-05-2004 8:46 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 172 of 329 (113097)
06-06-2004 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by Ziw eht ekima
06-06-2004 8:30 PM


"Proof" is only necessary for those who are not sure. Only someone with doubt will test for proof. S/He who has the truth would believe when all prayers went unanswered.
I wonder sometimes if it's even possible people like you could ever understand how at odds this is with any mature, reasonable epistomology.
It's not enough to know. The question is, how do we know we know what we know?
Faith may be a way of knowing, but it provides absolutely nothing in terms of helping us know we know. The scientific method, on the other hand, is the best way to be as sure as we can that we actually know the things we know.
I'm sure this sounds silly to you, and it's because you've probably never sat down to think about knowledge, and how it's simply not possible to determine the difference between reality and a sufficiently convincing simulacrum.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Ziw eht ekima, posted 06-06-2004 8:30 PM Ziw eht ekima has not replied

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 Message 173 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 06-07-2004 11:32 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 173 of 329 (113451)
06-07-2004 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by crashfrog
06-06-2004 9:18 PM


quote:
CRASHFROG: Faith may be a way of knowing, but it provides absolutely nothing in terms of helping us know we know.
Yes it does, because faith has an end and that end is when God manifests what you are believing Him in faith for. This is called promise received, and when this happens you need to go on to the next one (promise) and continue in the life of faith to faith. (Romans1:17)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by crashfrog, posted 06-06-2004 9:18 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by crashfrog, posted 06-08-2004 2:05 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
Zachariah
Inactive Member


Message 174 of 329 (113480)
06-08-2004 12:48 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by IrishRockhound
05-22-2004 9:31 AM


what I think
I'm short on time so I am not going through the thread to read everything on it. If what I say has already been said this is why.
I don't think anyone can say what a "true Christian" is. I for one consider myself to be a christian but I don't do as normal christians do. I believe in an aposostolic way of christianity. I believe the scriptures tell us to follow certain feasts and festivals from the Old Testament. I believe the OT is there not to be done away with and only refer to the NT. I believe the OT verifies what was said in the NT and was not intended to be done away with. I believe it was wrong for the "church" to change the day of worship from Saturday (sabbath) to sunday. So I would say I'm a more traditional christian, living my life more like the appostles and Jesus did. I believe God does not change His mind. Some of these things are not traditionaly seen as normaly christian. So, most christians would characterize me as unusual, they may even ostrasize (? spelling) me. Push me away, but that strengthens my faith. I feal that the more opposition to me the more I must be doing something right. The devil doesn't want me to succeed, he wants me to fail. That's why it is hard. So what is a christian? There are as many answers to that question as there are questions to ask, lives to live, ways to interpret. This is what was ment in the Bible about not judging one another. Nobody has an answer, we all believe we are right and wrong. That's why they have been fighting about this for centuries. [And most christians (by the way) are not going to be able to talk sweet and kind words all the time. Try not to use this as a spring board for denying there faith, it's kind of lame.] Word up. -Z
This message has been edited by Zachariah, 06-07-2004 11:52 PM

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 175 of 329 (113503)
06-08-2004 2:05 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by Cold Foreign Object
06-07-2004 11:32 PM


Yes it does
No, it doesn't.
Pretend for a moment that you have faith in the wrong thing. How would you know? That's what I'm talking about.
God doesn't seem to answer prayers in any statistically meaningful way, so who's to say he's doing it at all?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 06-07-2004 11:32 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 06-08-2004 11:16 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 176 of 329 (113712)
06-08-2004 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by crashfrog
06-08-2004 2:05 AM


quote:
CRASHFROG: God doesn't seem to answer prayers in any statistically meaningful way, so who's to say he's doing it at all?
People who credit Him with answering prayer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by crashfrog, posted 06-08-2004 2:05 AM crashfrog has replied

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 Message 177 by crashfrog, posted 06-09-2004 2:22 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 177 of 329 (113748)
06-09-2004 2:22 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by Cold Foreign Object
06-08-2004 11:16 PM


People who credit Him with answering prayer.
But who's to say they're right, since there's no objective evidence they can provide? Who's to say they're crediting the right entity?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 06-08-2004 11:16 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 178 of 329 (113928)
06-09-2004 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by crashfrog
06-09-2004 2:22 AM


quote:
CRASHFROG: But who's to say they're right, since there's no objective evidence they can provide? Who's to say they're crediting the right entity?
In a court of law persons testimony is judged by the jury and judge as to its truthfulness. Corroborating evidence is used to confirm or impeach testimony. Many times the entire body of evidence/case comes down to the believability of the witness because the corroborating evidence is a push.
Jesus did miracles in the presence of the Pharisees and they still didn't believe. There is no "objective evidence" that you could be swayed with. Richard Dawkins/Crashfrog said if a statue of the Virgin Mary were to wave at you then you didn't really see what you saw. In other words, miracles don't exist no matter what. This worldview doesn't allow miracles so the front of "objective evidence" is a lie.
Which entity ?
The one who got the answered prayer - whomever they credit.
Your position is to dismiss the whole (baby with the bathwater) because you deem the entire subject unworthy of research to find out.
The answers await in the study of comparitive religion.
This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 06-09-2004 06:11 PM

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wmscott
Member (Idle past 6247 days)
Posts: 580
From: Sussex, WI USA
Joined: 12-19-2001


Message 179 of 329 (115157)
06-14-2004 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by riVeRraT
05-29-2004 7:59 PM


Dear Riverrat;
quote:
I do believe that the bible teaches us nothing of religion, only Gods word, so how could it tell you in its scriptures about going to someone else's church. If its Christian, its ok. You don't have to like it.
That is silly, the Bible is all about religion, Christianity specifically in the NT, it is supposed to be our guide book and true Christians make their decisions based on guidance found in it's pages. That is what being true followers of Christ is all about. As to whether all christian religions are acceptable to God, all we need to do to find an answer is to read a few verses that bear on the subject. (Galatians 5:2-9) ". . .See! I, Paul, am telling YOU that if YOU become circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to YOU.' Moreover, I bear witness again to every man getting circumcised that he is under obligation to perform the whole Law. YOU are parted from Christ, whoever YOU are that try to be declared righteous by means of law; YOU have fallen away from his undeserved kindness. For our part we by spirit are eagerly waiting for the hoped-for righteousness as a result of faith. For as regards Christ Jesus neither circumcision is of any value nor is uncircumcision, but faith operating through love [is]. YOU were running well. Who hindered YOU from keeping on obeying the truth? This sort of persuasion is not from the One calling YOU. A little leaven ferments the whole lump." Paul stated here that mixing Judaism with Christianity would be unacceptable to God and that Christ would be of no benefit to them, or in other words, their worship would be in vain. Now if mixing Christianity with Judaism which had God's favor until it was replace by the New convent was enough to lose God's approval, how does God view the churches today that have added pagan doctrines that are not found in ether the OT or the NT?
The Bible predicted that there would be a falling away on the part of many and a raising up of false Christians. (2 Peter 2:1-2) "However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among YOU. These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects and will disown even the owner that bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves. Furthermore, many will follow their acts of loose conduct," This is why there are so many Christian religions, any deviation from following God's word is unacceptable to God and results in his rejection. (2 Corinthians 11:13-15) "For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light. It is therefore nothing great if his ministers also keep transforming themselves into ministers of righteousness. But their end shall be according to their works."
There is much deception, the false leaders love to appear righteous and put on quite a show of being holy, wearing special clothing, using special titles and doing all sorts of things to make themselves look righteous. But as Peter stated, they will be judged by their works and they can readily be spotted for what they are by their works. The sex abuse scandal with the Catholic priests is an example of the works that the Bible is referring to here. (Matthew 24:24) "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones." The false Christs and false prophets would arise in the christian congregation and would draw followers after themselves in a false christianity, they succeed by deception, those following them think they are following Christ.
Here John warns that what was warned about had started. (1 John 2:18) "Young children, it is the last hour, and, just as YOU have heard that antichrist is coming, even now there have come to be many antichrists;"
The scriptures warn clearly about the dangers of following the antichrist or religious leaders who claim to be followers of Christ but are not. Obviously any true Christian could imperil his relationship with God by attending churches that are unknowingly following the antichrist. (1 Timothy 4:1) "However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons," Not all christian religions are acceptable to God, it is easy enough to recognize True Christianity by using the Bible.
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Thats your interpretation of it. The Holy Spirit was also called a counseler. Sounds more and more like a person.
The scripture you are probably thinking of is, (John 16:13-14) "However, when that one arrives, the spirit of the truth, he will guide YOU into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own impulse, but what things he hears he will speak, and he will declare to YOU the things coming. That one will glorify me, because he will receive from what is mine and will declare it to YOU." notice that the holy spirit doesn't speak of it's own impulse. The holy spirit is like God's hand, your hands can do many intelligent things like type a response to this post, but that doesn't make your hands a person. the holy spirit in the Bible is an extension of God's presence and power. But with your belief in the Trinity, you have to see the holy spirit as a person, your understanding or viewpoint is locked in place. Probably not until after you stop believing in the Trinity will you be able to see the holy spirit correctly. Many times people's belief systems are heavily interconnected and the resulting locks on their thinking has to removed by opening the locks in a specific sequence, to see one point they first have to understand another. John referred to this at, (John 16:12) "I have many things yet to say to YOU, but YOU are not able to bear them at present."
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If my wife would have listened to your teachings, my step child would have never recieved a blood transfusion when he was born, and died. Now he is alive and well, and is in the spirit. A jehovah witness would have rather witnessed his death.
First off, your logic is in error, there is now way of knowing for sure that your child would have definitely died without a blood transfusion, I know of many cases where blood was refused and the person lived. The thinking that a blood transfusion means life and refusing one means death, is a falsity. I know of at least one case where the person accepted the transfusion and still died. Medicine is not a world of certainty with definite out comes, our knowledge of the human body and how to treat it is limited which means medical opinions are not always correct. The ether or logic is wrong too, there is now a vast medical field of alterative field of blood free medicine that in many cases is better than using blood. Ever wonder why they are always looking for a replacement for blood? It is better to state that there are medical conditions in which refusing a blood transfusion exposes the patient to higher risks.
Second; nobody of any religion wants to see their child die. The refusal of blood has a sound scriptural backing, it is a biblical requirement binding on True Christians. (Acts 15:20) "abstain from things polluted by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood." True Christians can no more accept blood and keep God's favor than they could by engaging in fornication. So if somebody puts a gun to you kid's head and said that you have to convert to Islam, what are you going to do? When you get right down to it, we have to be willing to put our lives and the lives of those we love on the line. Christ set the pattern, he was willing to die, so should we or we are not his disciples. (John 11:25) "Jesus said to her: "I am the resurrection and the life. He that exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life;" Christians can expected to be tested, we have to pass the test of faith if we are to receive life.
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Now Jesus is Lord, go back 20 years and see if the Jehovah witnesses thought Jesus was Lord. I know a secret. Your doctrines were changed by a spirit filled christian, so that Jesus could become Lord.
The 1950 Watchtower of October 15 on page 393 in quoting Romans 10:4, 8-11 (NW): stated " Jesus is Lord," 1950 is as far back as my references go that I have at hand, that Jesus is Lord is a basic belief of all Christians and has always been a part of our beliefs.
Wm. Scott Anderson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by riVeRraT, posted 05-29-2004 7:59 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by riVeRraT, posted 06-14-2004 7:03 PM wmscott has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 180 of 329 (115170)
06-14-2004 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by wmscott
06-14-2004 5:47 PM


how does God view the churches today that have added pagan doctrines that are not found in ether the OT or the NT?
If I prove to you that Jehovah witnesses have changed the bible, would you drop your religion?
There is also nothing in the bible that requires us to be a jehovah witness or God rejects us. Thats just absurd.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by wmscott, posted 06-14-2004 5:47 PM wmscott has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by wmscott, posted 06-15-2004 5:48 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 182 by wmscott, posted 06-15-2004 5:48 PM riVeRraT has not replied
 Message 183 by wmscott, posted 06-15-2004 5:48 PM riVeRraT has not replied

  
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