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Author Topic:   What is a True Christian?
wmscott
Member (Idle past 6247 days)
Posts: 580
From: Sussex, WI USA
Joined: 12-19-2001


Message 181 of 329 (115486)
06-15-2004 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by riVeRraT
06-14-2004 7:03 PM


ear Riverrat
quote:
If I prove to you that Jehovah witnesses have changed the bible, would you drop your religion?
That would depend on the change now wouldn't it? If you were able to show that Jehovah's Witnesses beliefs were based on a clear distortion of the Biblical text, it would be time to start rethinking what I believe in, but I have had these discussions many times and no one has every come up with anything. Jehovah's Witnesses mold their beliefs to the Bible, not the other way around. It would be totally pointless to have a religion based on a doctored Bible and then send them out to talk to everyone about it, all it would take is for one person to point out the alterations and the bubble would pop, since that hasn't happened, that clearly isn't the case.
quote:
There is also nothing in the bible that requires us to be a jehovah witness or God rejects us. Thats just absurd.
That depends on what Jehovah's Witnesses really are, if they are the one True Christian religion, then you need to be, but if they are not, then it wouldn't be wise to be one. (Ephesians 4:5) "one Lord, one faith, one baptism;" The gate is narrow and few are the ones finding it, while the broad path leads off into destruction. Scripturally the True followers of Christ are one united group, so there is no way that all the many 'christian' religions we see today are all roads leading to the same place as many claim. It is up to us to use the Bible to keep testing to see if we are still in the faith or in the right faith. I believe Jehovah's Witnesses are the Truth, but that is my belief, you have to make your own decision and come to your own conclusions. A simple study of the Bible will reveal the answer, that is of course why we have it and why Jehovah's Witnesses offer free Bible studies to everyone. Why not ask the next one that calls at your door for a study and find out for yourself.
Wm Scott Anderson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by riVeRraT, posted 06-14-2004 7:03 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by riVeRraT, posted 06-16-2004 7:16 AM wmscott has replied

  
wmscott
Member (Idle past 6247 days)
Posts: 580
From: Sussex, WI USA
Joined: 12-19-2001


Message 182 of 329 (115487)
06-15-2004 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by riVeRraT
06-14-2004 7:03 PM


ear Riverrat
quote:
If I prove to you that Jehovah witnesses have changed the bible, would you drop your religion?
That would depend on the change now wouldn't it? If you were able to show that Jehovah's Witnesses beliefs were based on a clear distortion of the Biblical text, it would be time to start rethinking what I believe in, but I have had these discussions many times and no one has every come up with anything. Jehovah's Witnesses mold their beliefs to the Bible, not the other way around. It would be totally pointless to have a religion based on a doctored Bible and then send them out to talk to everyone about it, all it would take is for one person to point out the alterations and the bubble would pop, since that hasn't happened, that clearly isn't the case.
quote:
There is also nothing in the bible that requires us to be a jehovah witness or God rejects us. Thats just absurd.
That depends on what Jehovah's Witnesses really are, if they are the one True Christian religion, then you need to be, but if they are not, then it wouldn't be wise to be one. (Ephesians 4:5) "one Lord, one faith, one baptism;" The gate is narrow and few are the ones finding it, while the broad path leads off into destruction. Scripturally the True followers of Christ are one united group, so there is no way that all the many 'christian' religions we see today are all roads leading to the same place as many claim. It is up to us to use the Bible to keep testing to see if we are still in the faith or in the right faith. I believe Jehovah's Witnesses are the Truth, but that is my belief, you have to make your own decision and come to your own conclusions. A simple study of the Bible will reveal the answer, that is of course why we have it and why Jehovah's Witnesses offer free Bible studies to everyone. Why not ask the next one that calls at your door for a study and find out for yourself.
Wm Scott Anderson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by riVeRraT, posted 06-14-2004 7:03 PM riVeRraT has not replied

  
wmscott
Member (Idle past 6247 days)
Posts: 580
From: Sussex, WI USA
Joined: 12-19-2001


Message 183 of 329 (115488)
06-15-2004 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by riVeRraT
06-14-2004 7:03 PM


ear Riverrat
quote:
If I prove to you that Jehovah witnesses have changed the bible, would you drop your religion?
That would depend on the change now wouldn't it? If you were able to show that Jehovah's Witnesses beliefs were based on a clear distortion of the Biblical text, it would be time to start rethinking what I believe in, but I have had these discussions many times and no one has every come up with anything. Jehovah's Witnesses mold their beliefs to the Bible, not the other way around. It would be totally pointless to have a religion based on a doctored Bible and then send them out to talk to everyone about it, all it would take is for one person to point out the alterations and the bubble would pop, since that hasn't happened, that clearly isn't the case.
quote:
There is also nothing in the bible that requires us to be a jehovah witness or God rejects us. Thats just absurd.
That depends on what Jehovah's Witnesses really are, if they are the one True Christian religion, then you need to be, but if they are not, then it wouldn't be wise to be one. (Ephesians 4:5) "one Lord, one faith, one baptism;" The gate is narrow and few are the ones finding it, while the broad path leads off into destruction. Scripturally the True followers of Christ are one united group, so there is no way that all the many 'christian' religions we see today are all roads leading to the same place as many claim. It is up to us to use the Bible to keep testing to see if we are still in the faith or in the right faith. I believe Jehovah's Witnesses are the Truth, but that is my belief, you have to make your own decision and come to your own conclusions. A simple study of the Bible will reveal the answer, that is of course why we have it and why Jehovah's Witnesses offer free Bible studies to everyone. Why not ask the next one that calls at your door for a study and find out for yourself.
Wm Scott Anderson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by riVeRraT, posted 06-14-2004 7:03 PM riVeRraT has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 184 of 329 (115641)
06-16-2004 7:16 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by wmscott
06-15-2004 5:48 PM


1As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to one hope when you were called-- 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
7But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8This is why it[1] says:
"When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men."
This verse was written by an apostle. One faith means your faith should be in Christ, not a religion. Christ never said that the way to him is through jehovah witness.
The only way to the father is through Christ. You don't need a religion to do that, just Christ.
John 3:16
*edited because of a bad bracket messing up the message*
This message has been edited by riVeRraT, 06-16-2004 06:20 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by wmscott, posted 06-15-2004 5:48 PM wmscott has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by wmscott, posted 06-16-2004 4:11 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
wmscott
Member (Idle past 6247 days)
Posts: 580
From: Sussex, WI USA
Joined: 12-19-2001


Message 185 of 329 (115805)
06-16-2004 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by riVeRraT
06-16-2004 7:16 AM


Dear Riverrat;
Our faith is in Jesus and it is Jesus' desire that his followers be united in one group or religion. (John 17:20-23) " "I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word; in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth. Also, I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one. I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one, that the world may have the knowledge that you sent me forth and that you loved them just as you loved me." The above verses are part of the prayer that Jesus made to his Father Jehovah God on the last night he was with his disciples. Christ was talking about unity, he wanted his followers to be united in one group or religion, he did not want them to be disunited or fractured into splinter groups. The scriptures foretold that many would fall away following false teachers, but those who remain were to remain united. Worshipping God on our own without joining ourselves to the body of Christ's true followers is not what Jesus had in mind. Paul, also wrote; (Hebrews 10:24-25) "And let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as YOU behold the day drawing near." and Jesus said. (Matthew 18:20) "For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst." (Matthew 16:18) "I will build my congregation, and the gates of Hades will not overpower it."
The scriptures are clear, True Christians are to be one, and to be one, we must be an active part of True Christianity. If we were to refuse to follow Christ's wishes that his followers be one, could we expect him to be with us? To be a follower of Christ, we have to follow him.
No, there is no verse in the Bible that names Jehovah's Witnesses by name as the True followers of Christ, but the identifying marks listed in the Bible do. Christ stated what he wanted his followers to do and believe, only Jehovah's Witnesses match the biblical description of True Christianity.
John 3:16 tells us "that everyone exercising faith" would be saved, but do you know what that means? To save us, our faith needs to be an active living faith which means it changes how we think and act, it can't be a mere acknowledgement of fact or acceptance. (James 2:14-17) "Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if a certain one says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it? If a brother or a sister is in a naked state and lacking the food sufficient for the day, yet a certain one of YOU says to them: "Go in peace, keep warm and well fed," but YOU do not give them the necessities for [their] body, of what benefit is it? Thus, too, faith, if it does not have works, is dead in itself." What James was saying is that a dead faith that doesn't cause us to live by it, can't save us, our faith has to motivate us to follow Christ's example in our lives to be of any benefit. So contrary to what many think, just believing is not enough, we need to 'exercise faith' which would include activity pursuing christian activities including gathering ourselves together into the one body of Christ's True followers.
Wm. Scott Anderson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by riVeRraT, posted 06-16-2004 7:16 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by riVeRraT, posted 06-17-2004 7:44 AM wmscott has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 186 of 329 (115988)
06-17-2004 7:44 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by wmscott
06-16-2004 4:11 PM


Let me just say this, I think you are an awesome person, because of the time you have spent writting letters to me. Your paitience is obvious, and I hope that it all comes from Love, as it would from me.
I also do not think any less of you for being a Jehovah withness, but I am starting to think that Jehovah witnesses may think that of other Christian religions. This to me seems wrong, and to go against Jesus's teachings. I don't think that following a religiong is nearly as important as following Christ, for religion was created by man and run by man. We all can have an intimate relationship with God regardless of our religion.
Remember none of can really translate the original bible as it is a lost language. So when you think that the Jehovah withness has the "berst" translation, it still could be slightly off.
John 17:20-23 to me means to be united with him through his spirit, not some church.
He compared his union with the father, and said we should have the same union. That's a spiritual union, not a religious one.
When he talks about giving us the glory, he means the Holy Spirit, which anyone can have if they so choose. You don't need a religion for that. Anyone that I have met, who has experienced the Holy Spirit, seem to feel the same way. We are united as one, because we are lead by the same spirit, not some church.
It would be very hard to fracture that bond, that spiritual bond. Its only when we start thinking of this world to we start to split up into groups. When we are lead by the spirit, we remain united. It only takes one person in your religion to start thinking of this world, and then he can mess the whole thing up for everyone.
The church I go to is emphatic about being a spirit lead church. This does not mean that everyone there is spirit lead. It's still a church with human beings in it. The devil also goes to church every Sunday, praising God.
(Hebrews 10:24-25) "And let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as YOU behold the day drawing near." and Jesus said. (Matthew 18:20) "For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst." (Matthew 16:18) "I will build my congregation, and the gates of Hades will not overpower it."
Jesus did not reply to Hebrews 10:24-25 with Matthew 18:20. you made it seem that way.
Matthew 16:18 Jesus was talking to Peter, so if you believe that, then whatever religion stemed from Peter would be the true religion.
The bible I read has Matthew 16:18 as this:
18And I tell you that you are Peter,[3] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[4] will not overcome it.[5] 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[6] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[7] loosed in heaven."
So before that he was saying:
15"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,[2] the Son of the living God."
17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven
So they were talking about the revelation the father gave Peter. It is from that revalation "rock" that you build a church from.
The scriptures are clear, True Christians are to be one, and to be one, we must be an active part of True Christianity. If we were to refuse to follow Christ's wishes that his followers be one, could we expect him to be with us? To be a follower of Christ, we have to follow him.
This to me is very interesting, how you said that. Because it seems to reflect exactly what I am saying. The only problem is that you feel the "True Christianity" is Jehovah withness, not the Holy Spirit.
Jesus spoke of this:
Acts
4On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5For John baptized with[1] water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit."
and followed it with:
8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."
This to me is very clear and in context. If I recieve the Holy Spirit, I can be Jesus's witness to the ends of the earth.
How awesome is that? And we don't need a church to do that.
Even after many translations of the bible, you can still recieve God's word through a "bad" translation and then be a True Christian.
Ture Christianity lies in your heart, not some religion.
John 3:16 tells us "that everyone exercising faith" would be saved, but do you know what that means? To save us, our faith needs to be an active living faith which means it changes how we think and act, it can't be a mere acknowledgement of fact or acceptance. (James 2:14-17) "Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if a certain one says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it? If a brother or a sister is in a naked state and lacking the food sufficient for the day, yet a certain one of YOU says to them: "Go in peace, keep warm and well fed," but YOU do not give them the necessities for [their] body, of what benefit is it? Thus, too, faith, if it does not have works, is dead in itself." What James was saying is that a dead faith that doesn't cause us to live by it, can't save us, our faith has to motivate us to follow Christ's example in our lives to be of any benefit. So contrary to what many think, just believing is not enough, we need to 'exercise faith' which would include activity pursuing christian activities including gathering ourselves together into the one body of Christ's True followers.
I agree with this whole heartedly.
I will add this too:
Romans
Romans 8:1
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,[ 8:1 Some later manuscripts Jesus, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit,]
Romans 8:9
You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
No condemnation for those who are in Christ.
You do not need to be a Jehovah witness to be in Christ.
As far as gathering goes, there is more power when 2 or more gather, but it is not required. If no one else on earth believed in Christ, it would be hard to fulfill that directive. Then according to that way of thinking, you couldn't be in Christ?
So it is not required, but most people who believe look to gather with others.
I Love my church and the rules of religion that it follows, but it doesn't make me any more of a true Christian, than a spirit filled bumb on the street. He might have a better chance of getting into heaven than me.
God Bless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by wmscott, posted 06-16-2004 4:11 PM wmscott has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by wmscott, posted 06-18-2004 6:31 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
wmscott
Member (Idle past 6247 days)
Posts: 580
From: Sussex, WI USA
Joined: 12-19-2001


Message 187 of 329 (116555)
06-18-2004 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by riVeRraT
06-17-2004 7:44 AM


Dear Riverrat;
Yes love is the motivation in sharing Good News and no; Jehovah's Witnesses do not look down on other religions, we disagree with what they may teach but that is no reason to look down on the people who belong to them, most of us came from other religions. This world is like a sinking ship and we are calling to people to come get in the lifeboat with us before this world goes under. There is nothing more humbling than going to total strangers' doors trying to share the Good News with them and getting mostly rejections. OneWitness went to a Man's door in Russia and he attacked her breaking two of her ribs and then he successfully sued her for invasion of his privacy. As a Jehovah's Witness you learn humility real fast in the door to door work, it is only our desire to follow Christ's command to preach the Good News and our concern for our fellow man that keeps us going.
While most religions are the creation of man, I believe that one was created by Christ, True Christianity. I view True Christianity as a ideal or perfect concept that all christian religions should be reaching for, none of them can attain it perfectly, for we are all imperfect, but the one religion that comes closest to this goal is the effective Truth. If another religion were to come along and take over the 'lead' then that religion would become the Truth. Right now I would say that Jehovah's Witnesses are the Truth and looking at the biblical standards for it, they have the lead by a very wide margin. On a number of key biblical doctrines and guidelines, only Jehovah's Witnesses "walk the walk" while the rest just talk. But that is my viewpoint, we could talk about what those biblical standards are and how religions measure up to them which is how you identify which religion is actually the Truth.
No the Bible translations we have are not perfect, no translation is ever as good as reading in the original language. But they are very good and ancient Hebrew and Greek are not lost languages and are very well understood today which is why modern translations are far better than older ones like the KJV. Any errors left are probably very small and minor, a perfect translation is not a human possibility anyway, God has seen to it that we have what we need so we have no excuse not to listen to God's word.
Yes anyone can serve God on their own, but should associate with fellow believers if possible. Having seen God's spirit in action and what it can do when a large group works together, I know that if we were to disintegrate from a group into individuals, we would get much less done and many things we could not do at all. I can think of no more effective way of reducing the impact of Christianity on the world than by telling Christians they can all worship God on their own, which is why I think that idea is a bad one.
The rock mass at Matthew 18:20 was Jesus, the chief cornerstone that the builders rejected, but that is a side point, I didn't try to make it look like Jesus was replying to Hebrews I was showing a common thread of thought. I was trying to show that it was Christ's intention that his followers form one united group and not a bunch of people playing doctrinal al a cart. If doctrines didn't matter, the Bible writers wouldn't have warned about being misled by false ones. Most of paul's letters were addressed to congregations, groups of people worshipping together with men appointed to take the lead, and the congregations were governed by the older men in Jerusalem. The Way or the Christians of the first century were a organized religion, that was what Jesus wanted. Christ is our leader, that implies organization. (1 Corinthians 14:40) "But let all things take place decently and by arrangement." (1 Corinthians 14:26-33) "What is to be done, then, brothers? When YOU come together, one has a psalm, another has a teaching, another has a revelation, another has a tongue, another has an interpretation. Let all things take place for upbuilding. And if someone speaks in a tongue, let it be limited to two or three at the most, and in turns; and let someone translate. But if there be no translator, let him keep silent in the congregation and speak to himself and to God. Further, let two or three prophets speak, and let the others discern the meaning. But if there is a revelation to another one while sitting there, let the first one keep silent. For YOU can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all be encouraged. And [gifts of] the spirit of the prophets are to be controlled by the prophets. For God is [a God], not of disorder, but of peace." This kind of peace and order is only possible if Christians work together not separately.
Sincerely yours; Wm Scott Anderson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by riVeRraT, posted 06-17-2004 7:44 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by riVeRraT, posted 06-21-2004 12:38 AM wmscott has replied

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 188 of 329 (116677)
06-19-2004 1:39 PM


Fundamentalist and/or the True Christian
My impression is that the Fundamentalist position has an obsession with the Old Testament, most prominently the books of Genesis and Exodus. Their moral guidance is the God of the Old Testament.
The True Christian has left the Old Testament behind, and his moral guidance is the New Testament, probably most prominently the Gospels. The True Christian draws his/her guidance from the teachings of Christ.
To me, the qualities of a True Christian are much the same as those of the Humanitarian.
Moose

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by mike the wiz, posted 06-19-2004 1:51 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 189 of 329 (116678)
06-19-2004 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by Minnemooseus
06-19-2004 1:39 PM


Re: Fundamentalist and/or the True Christian
Yes, I would have to concede that I don't really use the Torah for moral guidance. Like you say, well, I mainly concentrate on the NT and Christ's teachings. I don't disregard the OT, but some things are uselss to me. For example, I don't really read, nor am interested in the wars with Israel etc... Those stories bore me. Genesis is a great book though, the stories of Abraham, Izaac and Jacob are a great read, even adventurous at times. But to be honest, if there were no NT I wouldn't even be a believer. According to the bible, Gentiles only became significant with Christ's entry. So I suppose I could say the previous Jewish history is not as significant as it would be to to say, a Messianic Jew.
PS. I do enjoy the movie The ten Commandments though.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Minnemooseus, posted 06-19-2004 1:39 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 190 of 329 (116972)
06-21-2004 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by wmscott
06-18-2004 6:31 PM


Been a busy weekend.
I agree with all you said, but I do have a problem with one paragraph:
While most religions are the creation of man, I believe that one was created by Christ, True Christianity. I view True Christianity as a ideal or perfect concept that all christian religions should be reaching for, none of them can attain it perfectly, for we are all imperfect, but the one religion that comes closest to this goal is the effective Truth. If another religion were to come along and take over the 'lead' then that religion would become the Truth. Right now I would say that Jehovah's Witnesses are the Truth and looking at the biblical standards for it, they have the lead by a very wide margin. On a number of key biblical doctrines and guidelines, only Jehovah's Witnesses "walk the walk" while the rest just talk. But that is my viewpoint, we could talk about what those biblical standards are and how religions measure up to them which is how you identify which religion is actually the Truth.
The true Christianity that Christ was able to achieve will never be met by us. Its his pureness that was able to be a sacarifice for all humanity. The rest of us do not even come close.
As far as one religion being a effective truth, I would have to disagree because religion is made up of men, and we all fall way short of Jesus's plan for us.
The real truth is in the Holy Spirit, it is the living truth, and confirms the truth from within side us. Not some set of religious rules or church.
I am not putting down the idea of gathering and worshiping together, I love it, but it is not the truth, effective or any other word you want to call it. If one guy in leadership is sinning the rest will suffer for it.
There is no way a religion could ever be a truth. Your religion would not get you any closer to God than the next one. Getting close to God comes from your heart, not a religion. It seems that Jehovah witnesses have an attitude that unless you follow their religion, you are not getting into to heaven. That is very judgemental.
Let me share some scripture with you, this stuff all came to me the next day after I read your comments, it was the Holy Spirit speaking to me. I prayed for an answer to what you wrote.
Ephesians 1
5he[1] predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--
James 1
18He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.
1 Peter 1
Praise to God for a Living Hope
3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
Galatians 3
Sons of God
26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus,
[Thats a good one]
Galatians 4
7So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir.
Ephesians 1
7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding.
The only way to God is through Christ, not religion.
The church I go to is a Spirit lead church. I do not feel as though they are doing anything wrong in God's eyes, and it would not keep me from going to heaven. I also believe it to be trying to fullfill the True Christianity quest.
We are all different people and need different ways to worship, but no one way is the true way. The only true way is God's way for you.
It's a personal thing between you and God.
Happy Fathers day.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by wmscott, posted 06-18-2004 6:31 PM wmscott has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by wmscott, posted 06-21-2004 8:42 PM riVeRraT has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 191 of 329 (117125)
06-21-2004 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Hangdawg13
06-06-2004 12:59 AM


Re: Yes!
It isn't the individual answered prayers that prove anything, mike. It is the success rate over time.
quote:
You desire God to be like a computer.
No, I am simply looking for reliable evidence that God is the cause of what you say He is the cause of.
So far, your entire post consists of giving God credit for when you believe your prayers to be answered, and also giving God credit for answering prayers when they aren't answered.
That is classic post hoc reasoning.
You claim to understand the ways of God when good things happen, yet when bad things happen, you claim to not understand God.
quote:
You desire him to be under your control and always give the desired output. You assume that your wisdom is greater than God's.
No, I am simply trying to determine if the benefits to praying to your God are any different from random chance combined with post hoc reasoning and confimation bias.
quote:
The proof is not in the success rate of prayer over time. This is only an indication of a believer's maturity and conformity to the image of Christ. The proof is in the growth in faith and power in the believer's spiritual life.
So, you are basically saying that I just have to take your word for it that the effects of prayer are manifested in the natural world, even if you cannot demonstrate that you aren't actually self-deluded.
Sorry, can't go there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Hangdawg13, posted 06-06-2004 12:59 AM Hangdawg13 has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 192 of 329 (117132)
06-21-2004 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by Ziw eht ekima
06-06-2004 8:30 PM


Re: Yes!
The students saw what they wanted to see in the horoscope, and discounted or ignored the inaccuracies.
quote:
I've seen these experiments before, but the information the people are given is vague and could describe a lot of things. But we are talking about specific prayer requests.
WHAT specific prayer requests?
Nobody has risked providing any any specific prayer requests.
quote:
Specific things happening at a specific time and place are what prayers are.
Right.
So far, I have not been successful in my attempts to get the people claiming God answers their prayers to step up to the plate and list ALL of their specific requests, including times and places, so that we can look at their hit rate.
quote:
For example, if I want to be healed from a specific illness, it's no good that I recieve any other result than that specific request. Also, what are the chances of spontanious remission?
Both excellent questions! What are the success rates of people praying to be healed of a specific illness?
quote:
We know we are right because we have the truth. Why should someone test whether they are eating an apple when they know they are?
Any disinterested observers can also observe you eating an apple, and you can be recorded eating an apple on film and audio. The contents of your stomach could be extrated and examined by other disinterested observers and shown to contain partially digested apple.
None of this can be done for your belief in God, or even for the existence of God.
People "know" that they have been abducted by aliens.
Why should I believe you and not them?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Ziw eht ekima, posted 06-06-2004 8:30 PM Ziw eht ekima has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by mike the wiz, posted 06-21-2004 5:30 PM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 193 of 329 (117137)
06-21-2004 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Cold Foreign Object
06-09-2004 2:57 PM


quote:
In a court of law persons testimony is judged by the jury and judge as to its truthfulness. Corroborating evidence is used to confirm or impeach testimony. Many times the entire body of evidence/case comes down to the believability of the witness because the corroborating evidence is a push.
Since DNA testing has been developed, many men wrongly accused of rape have been shown to be innocent because their accusers, however completely convinced and positive they were when they identified their rapists, were completely wrong.
Eyewitness testimony is still very convincing in jury trials, unfortunately, even though it has been shown to be very inaccurate.
What people recall seeing isn't all that likely to be what actually happened, especially in emotionally-charged situations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 06-09-2004 2:57 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
Steve
Inactive Member


Message 194 of 329 (117186)
06-21-2004 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by crashfrog
06-05-2004 4:08 AM


Christianity is NOT, I repeat NOT a religion!!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by crashfrog, posted 06-05-2004 4:08 AM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by jar, posted 06-21-2004 3:26 PM Steve has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 195 of 329 (117189)
06-21-2004 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by Steve
06-21-2004 3:23 PM


You have asserted that. But so far offered no evidence. It is recognized as a religion, professes a supernatural being, has form and ceremony, has related reference books and all other characteristics of a religion. It is exactly like every other religion, ISLAM, Hindu, Jewish and the rest.
If you have evidence that it is not a religion, please tell us. The Pope would be interested as well.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Steve, posted 06-21-2004 3:23 PM Steve has replied

Replies to this message:
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