Size of singularity

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Well, I guess I'm never going to see it the way everybody else does. In my mind I see space as neverending (infinite), because I can not comprehend how it could end

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Thats quite reasonable. But equally, if this thyeory is true, then your brain evolved WITHIN this expanding universe; it, too, is a property of this universe and can only recognise other things within it.This is why this stuff is nigh incomprehensible; to our flat-earth, coordinate-oriented minds, its very difficult to try to concpetualise "something outside of space". Fortunately, mathematics is not so limited and can produce models and theories which - while metaphors - are rather more comprehensible. The Big Bang is one such.

Hi, Jerry & folks,First off, this is a very interesting forum you have here. I've been reading through some of the threads and have seen some pretty intelligent questions/ideas presented. This particular topic caught my eye because I have a bit of background in it.Allow me a brief introduction: I'm a retired researcher from AT&T Bell Labs in New Jersey. And although I didn't work directly with them, I'm a contemporary of Wilson and Pinelas - the fellows who discovered the CBR microwave signature. And even though I wasn't involved with their work, I've used the same equipment that they did during their study.And now to my reason for posting. Your questions, Jerry, are good, honest ones. And the real truth is that no one has the answers. It's simply unknown as to what lies beyond the boundries of our Universe and it's impossible to know what existed prior to the moment of the Big Bang. There are many theories that attempt to address the latter, such as superstrings, but they are still just that - theories. Most are the result of complex mathematical constructs that bear little resemblance to what you might call 'common logic' or 'everyday reality.'I noticed a while back in this discussion that one or two people mentioned that singularities are dimensionless. That's simply not correct. They most certainly DO have a physical presence that occupies a volume of space and they come in all sizes. From very small to very large. In fact, the most recently discovered one, as announced in the 10 June issue of "Astrophysical Journal Letters", is called a supermassive black hole and is estimated to be large enough to contain 1,000 solar systems the size of our own. Note that that's it's SIZE - hardly what you would call "dimensionless." {Heh-heh!} And it's mass is estimated to be equalivent to our entire galaxy, the Milky Way.Also, I'd like to apoligize if the following sounds a bit condensending. It's not intended to be and that's simply not my style. But it appears to me that the majority of folks who've responded to you in this thread simply are saying what they _suppose_ to be the case and have never actually worked in the field. It's generally understood that that will lead to a lot of misinformation and confusion.And please don't get me wrong. I understand that this IS intended to be just a discussion and that everyone is encouraged to express their ideas and opinions. And that's a good thing to do!! Shalom!

Interested
Thanks for your comments. I must admit I have a bit of an obsession. That is that I believe that Infinity exists. I do not believe that something can be made from nothing and therefore Infinity must exist. I, in fact, do not believe that there is such a thing as nothing. I think it is possible that the so called empty space within an atom is full of matter too small for us to see. After all there are different kinds of quarks, wouldn't there be something different in each ones make up to make them different? And do Neutrino's and WIMP's just go on forever or do they eventually slow down and stop? Could there be Neutrino's and WIMP's that have ceased to move just lying around everywhere? What happens to them when they come to the edge of the universe, wherever that is? Do they continue into the nothing that does not exist or do they just stop? I really believe that time, space and matter are Infinite and the creation of a universe is a daily common occurance in Infinite space. Sorry, I have a tendency to ramble on when I think of Infinity. Thanks again.

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Thanks for your comments. I must admit I have a bit of an obsession. That is that I believe that Infinity exists. I do not believe that something can be made from nothing and therefore Infinity must exist. I, in fact, do not believe that there is such a thing as nothing. I think it is possible that the so called empty space within an atom is full of matter too small for us to see. After all there are different kinds of quarks, wouldn't there be something different in each ones make up to make them different? And do Neutrino's and WIMP's just go on forever or do they eventually slow down and stop? Could there be Neutrino's and WIMP's that have ceased to move just lying around everywhere? What happens to them when they come to the edge of the universe, wherever that is? Do they continue into the nothing that does not exist or do they just stop? I really believe that time, space and matter are Infinite and the creation of a universe is a daily common occurance in Infinite space. Sorry, I have a tendency to ramble on when I think of Infinity. Thanks again.

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Good morning, Jerry,You are very welcome. I hope they helped somewhat. And no need to apologize for 'rambling' - after all, infinity IS a BIG subject! I'm sure you're aware of how basic research works; it's just like any other kind of inventing. But actually the reverse of the way T. Edison described it when he said, "99% prespiration, 1% inspiration."And given that, you might enjoy this as much as I did when I first heard it: A standing joke/trueism at the Labs was that most of the work done there actually happened in the breakrooms and cafeteria. With a cup of coffee in one hand, a pen in the other, and materalized as scribbles on a paper napkin. {chuckle} Meaning that it consists of coming up with ideas, bouncing them off colleagues, and than having to rework them because they were torn to shreds by your fellow researchers.Oh - and I need to apologize for misspelling Penzias' name. Not the first time I've done it, either. {blush}But getting back closer to the topic, infinity, for now. Is what we call "space" really infinite? Is there "nothingness" beyond what we consider the be the bounds of our Universe? The jury is still out - way out. Many say that our expanding Universe is all that there is. However, neither they or anyone else has any basis for that beyond simply wanting it to be so. Why? Because to most "logical minds", the concept of endlessness is incomprenhensible. We tend to feel (no, that's too weak a word - we insist) that there must be limits to everything. So we attempt to force our version of 'realitity' upon the Universe itself. But as any true scientist would say, wishing and thinking does NOT make it so.So, scientifically speaking, there's absolutely no data whatsoever that can prove your idea wrong. Indeed, the whole thing may well be truly infinite and continue on forever.Just because it's beyond our comprehension does not make it incorrect. And at the same time, all of the latest theories may turn out to go nowhere. After all, eleven dimensions may be as impossible to prove as the existance of God.

Interested
To be honest I don't find Infinity difficult to comprehend at all. All I have to do is open my eyes and look at everything around me and the stars in the sky and just imagine more of the same. That's how I got started on thinking about Infinity. I work on a quarter horse ranch in the Sierra Nevada mountains and start work around 4:30 am. The stars are unbelievable up here. When you look at that and the mountains around you and try to imagine that that was all made from nothing it just not compute. It's nothingness that is impossible to comprehend. Everyone uses the word but no one can describe what nothing is. If they are talking about endless empty space, that would be one thing, but if they want me to believe that there is nothing, not even empty space, I can't buy it.
To me, believing that this is the only universe that ever formed is like our primitive ancestors believing that the earth was the center of the universe or that the earth was flat(which of course is what the universe is now thought to be).
I created a name for what I believe. I call it Infinitysm. I guess I am the worlds first Infinityst. I believe that matter can be neither created nor destroyed, only changed or reduced beyond our ability to see, but never ceases to exist. I simply think of it as a third alternative to religion or atheism. In the end they are all beliefs. It may be that man will never prove any of his beliefs beyond a shadow of a doubt.

nothing is perfect because there is only one of it...