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Author Topic:   "THE EXODUS REVEALED" VIDEO
Prince Lucianus
Inactive Member


Message 478 of 860 (128598)
07-29-2004 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 475 by Hydarnes
07-29-2004 10:53 AM


Don't put words in my mouth dude:
My post: 419
Now, even if Pithom was older (which hasn't been shown yet), you must at least confirm that Pithom was used as a storage city when Ramses build it
I didn't say only
Lucy

Bible
Search Results
"Death & Dead" were found 827 times in 751 verses.
Thats a Whole Lotta Suffering
"Dear God, I understand that if I fail to believe in you, I'll burn in Hell for all eternity. Thanks for being such a good sport about it." -- Dr. Oswald Pratt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 475 by Hydarnes, posted 07-29-2004 10:53 AM Hydarnes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 506 by Hydarnes, posted 07-30-2004 9:14 AM Prince Lucianus has not replied

Prince Lucianus
Inactive Member


Message 490 of 860 (128612)
07-29-2004 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 481 by Hydarnes
07-29-2004 11:18 AM


Proof
I don't think we need to footnote any statement we make.
It's undoable and we're not writing our master thesis here.
I think you should show proof when others ask for it and show pictures/websites/quotes when it's obvious that a statement is totally new, but not for every statement we make.
Lucy

Bible
Search Results
"Death & Dead" were found 827 times in 751 verses.
Thats a Whole Lotta Suffering
"Dear God, I understand that if I fail to believe in you, I'll burn in Hell for all eternity. Thanks for being such a good sport about it." -- Dr. Oswald Pratt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 481 by Hydarnes, posted 07-29-2004 11:18 AM Hydarnes has not replied

Prince Lucianus
Inactive Member


Message 513 of 860 (128936)
07-30-2004 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 508 by Lysimachus
07-30-2004 10:26 AM


Clear Evidence
I thought I would remain out but.....
What you cannot deny are the chariot wheels, which is CLEAR evidence of an Egyptian disaster.....
Only when it's proven that, without a shadow of doubt, all coral shapes are Egyptian wheels or have some chariot piece sticking in them.
The visible wheel is very very likely not Egyptian (have seen no prove of the contrary) The bones cannot be attributed to anything without C14 dating. The animal bones specifically can not be Egytptian, according to the bible.
There's a historical debate here that can go either way, discussing things which historians and archaeologists are clearly not in agreement with. Such things then have to be sorted out.
Example:
I remember a documentary where a French laboratory was convinced that they had prove that homeopathic medicine making was provable. They seemed to have a strong case, but after a neutral check later on, it was proven not to be the case.
So, to remain open minded to an archaeological excavation which was very bad, I'm willing to listen to;
C14 dating which Moller seems to be a specialist in. Preferably done by a neutral laboratory.
An excavation of the region, done by a team which isn't looking for something, just documenting the area and finds.
Otherwise, this discussion isn't going anywhere.
Lucy
This message has been edited by Prince Lucianus, 07-30-2004 10:09 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 508 by Lysimachus, posted 07-30-2004 10:26 AM Lysimachus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 514 by PaulK, posted 07-30-2004 11:10 AM Prince Lucianus has replied
 Message 527 by Hydarnes, posted 08-01-2004 1:52 AM Prince Lucianus has replied

Prince Lucianus
Inactive Member


Message 516 of 860 (128956)
07-30-2004 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 514 by PaulK
07-30-2004 11:10 AM


Re: Clear Evidence
Ooops, I thought I heard such a claim seeing the videoclip on the exodus website. I must have misheard .
Lucy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 514 by PaulK, posted 07-30-2004 11:10 AM PaulK has not replied

Prince Lucianus
Inactive Member


Message 541 of 860 (129401)
08-01-2004 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 527 by Hydarnes
08-01-2004 1:52 AM


Re: Clear Evidence
quote:
Here we have the precise reproduction drawing versions of the parallel 18th dynasty four-spoke wheels shown above (the two right compared to the one found in Aqaba). SOURCE: (M. Healy and A. McBride) (1992) New Kingdom Egypt"--Osprey Publishing Ltd, London, England. (I’ve personally read this book)
Notice the striking resemblance between the gold-veneered wheel found at Aqaba and this Egyptian chariot wheel:
Yeah, notice the striking differences:
See the striking differences. Like how the spokes are attachemed to the rim. Actually, the wheel in the water has none, so unlike any Egyptian example we know of.
Furthermore, your source is not exactly a high standard publication.
So, I'll google now and look for some confiremd 18th dynasty chariot drawings/wheels.
Well, that's it (wow, it has 4 spokes. It looks so similar to the one found underwater). It's another chariot from Tut's grave, on display in Florence. These are late 18th dynasty chariots.
All the wheels we've seen were made of bend wood, spokes were attached to the rim. All sites describe the Egyptian chariot this way.
Not one site claims that wheels were made of solid wood. Not one mentions chariot wheels made from one piece of wood (I know you don't claim that, but the one underwater definitely does.)
And this piece
which
redsea2
describes as being Syrian. So why it is then depicted next to a Thutmosis IV chariot is a mystery.
Okay, so which wheels in this period do look like the strange wheel underwater.
Again (like a chariot x pages ago) a Mycenean one:
So, apart from the drawings you give us, without any description of where they came from, you simply still can't support the wheel as being Egyptian.
Drawings in a popular magazine are simply not good enough in this respect.
The only real source I have at home is The Cambridge Ancient History: Volume II, The Egytpian and Hittite empires to 1000 bc only state that Egyptian chariot wheels were strengthened by leather. I admitt, this isn't helping much.
I do not disagree that Egyptians only used 4, 6 or 8 spokes. But your picture sources so far only show later chariots, none belonging to Thutmose III. I haven't seen evidence of chariots during his reign.
I would still like to know which animals were used by the pharaoh, because they had no horses because of the 5th/6th plague. So the cow/horsebones can't have been theirs.
Lucy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 527 by Hydarnes, posted 08-01-2004 1:52 AM Hydarnes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 562 by Buzsaw, posted 08-01-2004 10:31 PM Prince Lucianus has not replied
 Message 564 by Lysimachus, posted 08-01-2004 10:40 PM Prince Lucianus has replied

Prince Lucianus
Inactive Member


Message 543 of 860 (129404)
08-01-2004 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 538 by JimSDA
08-01-2004 7:19 PM


Re: Picture
quote:
Lennart Moller is in no way "simple" -- he works in Sweden where they award the Nobel Prizes!!
  —JimSDA
I'm in no way simple too. I work in Holland where they invented the compact disc.
Lucy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 538 by JimSDA, posted 08-01-2004 7:19 PM JimSDA has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 544 by JimSDA, posted 08-01-2004 8:00 PM Prince Lucianus has not replied

Prince Lucianus
Inactive Member


Message 579 of 860 (129493)
08-02-2004 6:28 AM
Reply to: Message 564 by Lysimachus
08-01-2004 10:40 PM


Re: Clear Evidence
Archaeologists like myself (I have credentials JimSDA) look four times before we make statements and we're very carefull about it.
quote:
Let's think about this carefully through. If Ron had really wanted to deceive people by planting that wheel, wouldn't it seem logical that he would have wanted to plant a wheel that fits an EXACT description of the inscribed versions in order to be more convincing? The fact that the wheel contains some unique characteristics (but yet distinctly within Egyptian realms) only goes to show you that we have stumbled upon another similar variety. Any true reasonable archaeologist would agree that not all varieties would have been documented--especially seeing the fact we only have 11 preserved Egyptian war chariot wheels today.
And all those wheels show one thing! So, any reasonable archaeologist would not have dared to make a claim about:
How old it is.
Whose it is.
It's ridiculous to state that just by looking at it. Later periods and other (close) civilisations have wheels which have more resemblance then Egyptian chariot wheels from the 18th dynasty.
We're lucky to have so much prove, but none (I repeat none) describe or fit this wheel at all!!!!
Look, My point hasn't been refuted by Hydarnes. I just pointed something obvious which you both seem to have missed. There's one picture of a tomb (the one concerning chariot making, from whose tomb is that?) which shows what might have been a thicker chariot wheel.
This is the complete proof you have. There are no other pictures/preserved wheels. Most of your proof is from a later period and therefore actually of topic. The Mycenean/Syrian wheels I showed have just as much bearing as Thutmosis IV wheels.
Now let's have a look at the best coral forms which have been produced.
All of these totally don't resemble the idea of Egyptian chariot wheel making. How do these compare with what we know? They don't. You're simply desperately trying to see things for which you have no proof and present your proof as being totally obvious. Especially the last two wheels (fig 391, 392) don't resemble anything faintly looking like an ancient chariot wheel (maybe Roman). Using a popular scientific publication to prove your point is totally pathetic. Moller would be ashamed of you.
Now, I don't have to prove that these wheels look like anything, because I'm not trying to prove they're Egyptian, Thutmose III period chariot wheels. You have to show me that they can't have belonged to any other period or civilistation but Egyptian Thutmose III. Otherwise they can be used to prove other points.
Furthermore, you must show me:
1- How iron got into the wheel construction.
2- Who's horses/catle the Egyptians used.
Especially the last point has been denied a response for pages on end.
To Arkeologist
And "Observations on the Evolving Chariot Wheel in the 18th Dynasty", Journal of the American Research Center in Egypt (JARCE), no. 13, (1976) concludes that before 1400: chariots used 4 spoke wheels made of flexibel wood with leather (like I stated). After 1400 6 spoke wheels (one description of 8 wheels, might be used shortly). Same material used.
But, Yadin's argument that 4 spokes were restricted to the beginning of the dynasty is totally wrong. We have the 4 spoked wheels from Tutanchamun's tomb, who is late 18th dynasty. Did he forget those? If he didn't, how good is his dating system.
If his dating system is reliable. How come we find all of them in this one place? How come we find so many 8 spoke wheels when they were only experimental?
Lucy
This message has been edited by Prince Lucianus, 08-02-2004 05:41 AM

Bible
Search Results
"Death & Dead" were found 827 times in 751 verses.
Thats a Whole Lotta Suffering
"Dear God, I understand that if I fail to believe in you, I'll burn in Hell for all eternity. Thanks for being such a good sport about it." -- Dr. Oswald Pratt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 564 by Lysimachus, posted 08-01-2004 10:40 PM Lysimachus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 581 by Prince Lucianus, posted 08-02-2004 6:38 AM Prince Lucianus has not replied

Prince Lucianus
Inactive Member


Message 581 of 860 (129498)
08-02-2004 6:38 AM
Reply to: Message 579 by Prince Lucianus
08-02-2004 6:28 AM


No bearing on the evidence
Anybody who actually knows anything about diving, can see the amateurism of his remarks in this piece form the interview. He was a danger to his son.
"ANSWER: When scuba diving to 200 feet you can only stay down for five minutes. What we did when we were working this area over, we would swim at 30 feet because you don't build up any pressure or nitrogen compression at that depth. So basically you can swim at that depth all day long if you can keep an air supply. And then when we saw something that looked like it might be an artifact, we would dive down on it quickly, check it out and take pictures if it was something worthwhile. Even so at the end of the day, my son's nose was bleeding and my left shoulder was hurting
He was lucky to live for several years after these stunts.
Lucy

Bible
Search Results
"Death & Dead" were found 827 times in 751 verses.
Thats a Whole Lotta Suffering
"Dear God, I understand that if I fail to believe in you, I'll burn in Hell for all eternity. Thanks for being such a good sport about it." -- Dr. Oswald Pratt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 579 by Prince Lucianus, posted 08-02-2004 6:28 AM Prince Lucianus has not replied

Prince Lucianus
Inactive Member


Message 582 of 860 (129501)
08-02-2004 7:08 AM
Reply to: Message 556 by JimSDA
08-01-2004 10:14 PM


Re: Lennart Moller has published!
quote:
But you know, it's weird -- people have complained for years about wanting "picture proof" for UFOs, Bigfoot, angels, etc., etc. -- we PROVIDE pictures of coral-covered chariot wheels, and all that you people want to say is "It's not proof"!
I've seen picture proof of ufo's and bigfoot. I don't accept these, but apparently you do.
Picture's do not equal proof now do they.
And again, Moller is a medical researcher. How much did that contribute to the "Exodus Case"?
Lucy

Bible
Search Results
"Death & Dead" were found 827 times in 751 verses.
Thats a Whole Lotta Suffering
"Dear God, I understand that if I fail to believe in you, I'll burn in Hell for all eternity. Thanks for being such a good sport about it." -- Dr. Oswald Pratt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 556 by JimSDA, posted 08-01-2004 10:14 PM JimSDA has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 583 by JimSDA, posted 08-02-2004 7:36 AM Prince Lucianus has replied

Prince Lucianus
Inactive Member


Message 585 of 860 (129507)
08-02-2004 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 583 by JimSDA
08-02-2004 7:36 AM


Re: Lennart Moller's professionalism
I disagree, but have only seen the short pieces visible on the website.
Moller's contribution to an archaeological excavation are as positive as mine are in a medical research center (which I happen to think is very interesting).
The excavation, as I see it, had no neutral objective, searched elsewhere when confronted with problems, never measured anything, made no drawings and measurents of the corals which were photographed, used no other tools but camera's and metaldetectors (and a somnar in the boat, to measure the gulf's debth).
This is against most archaeological principles which I was taught (and doubt have changed the last years).
The whole excavation was a desperate attempt to find proof of something. Strange looking coral shapes which can not be shown to be 18th dynasty wheels (because they can represent a number of other things/wheels) are the only underwater found evidence. The bones (which haven't been carbon dated yet) are simply just bones which can come from any period in time.
Lucy

Bible
Search Results
"Death & Dead" were found 827 times in 751 verses.
Thats a Whole Lotta Suffering
"Dear God, I understand that if I fail to believe in you, I'll burn in Hell for all eternity. Thanks for being such a good sport about it." -- Dr. Oswald Pratt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 583 by JimSDA, posted 08-02-2004 7:36 AM JimSDA has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 587 by JimSDA, posted 08-02-2004 8:25 AM Prince Lucianus has replied

Prince Lucianus
Inactive Member


Message 594 of 860 (129524)
08-02-2004 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 587 by JimSDA
08-02-2004 8:25 AM


Re: Lennart Moller's professionalism
There seem to be a lot of problems with your evidence.
Since I haven't seen it, I can't really argue, but on this website and f.i overhere:
http://www.ldolphin.org/franz-ellawz.html
they have strong cases against it. And show links to others who have complaints about the work.
I do not agree with Ballard's work either, although he at least admitts when he doesn't find something. But Ballard doesn't mind removing artefacts with equipment which is rather shaky. So, destroying some other stuff while doing it. When things are very deep, I think we should wait until science makes it easier to excavate.
I know you didn't feel like waiting, but you could have mapped everything better. What were the chariot wheels positions in relation to;
eachother.
the coastline.
Where were the measurements which could show us a picture of the finds as they were in situ. Now we have no clue where each piece actually is. The search has to be done again for another group.
Drawings of the corals or a measuring stick should have been shown on the pictures, to show the wheels alleged size. Now we have nothing and so can't make anything out of them.
Underwater archaeology is simply much more than your team has done.
Lucy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 587 by JimSDA, posted 08-02-2004 8:25 AM JimSDA has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 599 by JimSDA, posted 08-02-2004 11:22 AM Prince Lucianus has replied

Prince Lucianus
Inactive Member


Message 602 of 860 (129542)
08-02-2004 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 599 by JimSDA
08-02-2004 11:22 AM


Re: Problems with the evidence?
I have no intention to discuss each and every point presented in the book and video.
I'm no geophysicist, so I can't argue that a black mountain top is a divine decent or has a natural explanation. The same for the boulders which have some biblical meaning or might be just boulders.
I can however argue about the way the excavation methods and about the recorded findings.
Others have argued about the above mentioned points and so as long as those are not proven to be genuine, I don't think it can be claimed to belong to anything rather than wishfull thinking.
Is anything scientific (c14 dating f.i) going to be published soon?
Lucy

Bible
Search Results
"Death & Dead" were found 827 times in 751 verses.
Thats a Whole Lotta Suffering
"Dear God, I understand that if I fail to believe in you, I'll burn in Hell for all eternity. Thanks for being such a good sport about it." -- Dr. Oswald Pratt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 599 by JimSDA, posted 08-02-2004 11:22 AM JimSDA has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 604 by JimSDA, posted 08-02-2004 12:01 PM Prince Lucianus has replied
 Message 605 by Ron Lambert, posted 08-02-2004 12:02 PM Prince Lucianus has replied

Prince Lucianus
Inactive Member


Message 615 of 860 (129565)
08-02-2004 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 604 by JimSDA
08-02-2004 12:01 PM


Re: C14 dating...
Well, Lysimachus believes in C14 and you don't.
That certainly rules me out of an argument.
If wheels were under the sand, then they would have survived and c14 could be used. Doesn't petrified wood still have year rings? (I genuinly do not know).
Well, like I said in an earlier post, until things have been cleared up by neutral scientists, we can argue all we want.
Lucy

Bible
Search Results
"Death & Dead" were found 827 times in 751 verses.
Thats a Whole Lotta Suffering
"Dear God, I understand that if I fail to believe in you, I'll burn in Hell for all eternity. Thanks for being such a good sport about it." -- Dr. Oswald Pratt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 604 by JimSDA, posted 08-02-2004 12:01 PM JimSDA has not replied

Prince Lucianus
Inactive Member


Message 619 of 860 (129569)
08-02-2004 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 605 by Ron Lambert
08-02-2004 12:02 PM


My sig
I have already told some people elsewhere that my sig is a cynical reply to someone else's signature which claims:
Bible
Search Results
"Love" was found 854 times in 751 verses.
Thats a Whole Lotta loving.
I simply state that you can use the bible to claim everything you want.
I can use the word sin and claim
Thats a whole lotta sinning
Lucy
p.s I know that picture you use from another forum.
I doubt you are the same guy from TBB, which would be fun though.
This message has been edited by Prince Lucianus, 08-02-2004 11:53 AM

Bible
Search Results
"Death & Dead" were found 827 times in 751 verses.
Thats a Whole Lotta Suffering
"Dear God, I understand that if I fail to believe in you, I'll burn in Hell for all eternity. Thanks for being such a good sport about it." -- Dr. Oswald Pratt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 605 by Ron Lambert, posted 08-02-2004 12:02 PM Ron Lambert has not replied

Prince Lucianus
Inactive Member


Message 623 of 860 (129575)
08-02-2004 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 610 by Yaro
08-02-2004 12:18 PM


Re: My own Hypothesis
The metal is a hot iron
The Egyptians in that period didn't pocess the skills to work iron, so these iron finds in the gulf of Aqaba are quite amazing, something else or belonged to another civilisation.
Furthermore, I have found no argument to support/falsify it yet, but I believe that coaral which grows on wood would perish before hard coral has a chance to get a good solid grip. I'm willing to listen to any well founded argument in favour/against it.
But normally, wood simply floats upward.
Lucy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 610 by Yaro, posted 08-02-2004 12:18 PM Yaro has not replied

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