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Author Topic:   Few Questions (Re: God's Miracles - Past and Present)
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5898 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 46 of 55 (134882)
08-18-2004 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Spiritman.8m
08-18-2004 1:50 AM


Re: 'Miracles' are happening ... regularly.
Spiritman.8m
Wow I just now spotted your place of residence and I am smitten with envy.That is beautiful country you are in.
Anmyway I thought to comment on this point of yours here.
If I say to you that a certain type of mushroom grows in certain places and describe these types of places, would you go look to see for yourself?
It seems obvious where you are leading with this so I will ask if in searching for that certain type of mushroom if I cannot find it where you say it is will you require of me that I must first "believe" in the mushroom and only then it will appear? Or will it,as all other things in reality,be there whether I choose to believe it or not?
And concerning this statement
'Believe' is not to say you make it up in your mind but that you come to acknowledge what you previously were ignorant of or refused to agree was true,
By what criteria do you come to acknowledge something when to believe in something you must first make the assumption that such things exist and thus pre-dispose your mind to filter evidence only in terms of the belief? How do you discern the difference between wishing something were so because you badly want it to be that way and merely fooling yourself for whatever reason?
Again let me remind you that I am envious and will now haunt your every post waiting for an invitation to come down for a visit.LOL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Spiritman.8m, posted 08-18-2004 1:50 AM Spiritman.8m has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Spiritman.8m, posted 08-18-2004 1:28 PM sidelined has replied

Spiritman.8m
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 55 (134962)
08-18-2004 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by sidelined
08-18-2004 8:30 AM


'Believe"
Sidelined - very good points!!!
First ... yes I live in paradise, at least on this side of heaven.
Next; You can 'believe' any fantasy you want, the power of our perceptions shapes what decsions we make in life. They better be real or your life will be a waste and empty at the end. ('What have I lived for?')
I am using & showing the use in the Bible, 'Believe' as a trust in something that there is evidence for and can be shown. Many religions are using 'blind faith' to manipulate people who want to see something easy to grasp in order to identify with their perceptions.
So I use the example of the unseen mushroom. I would only expect you to believe it if you could see some evidence of it's existence, the most obvious - if you went to a type of location I describe and after a bit of searching on your part saw one!
You are only to believe TRUTH, and truth has some evidence backing it up!!!
Perhaps you will visit here in the near future.

Spiritman.8m

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by sidelined, posted 08-18-2004 8:30 AM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by sidelined, posted 08-19-2004 12:45 AM Spiritman.8m has replied

1.61803
Member (Idle past 1494 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 48 of 55 (135000)
08-18-2004 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Spiritman.8m
08-18-2004 1:50 AM


Re: 'Miracles' are happening ... regularly.
Hi Spiritman,
I appreciate your belief in the metaphysical.
I believe in things on the bases of some verifiable supportive evidence from unbias sources. Simply someone saying believe it. Doesnt cut it with me. I can not 'will' myself to have faith. No matter how hard I try no matter how much I grit my teeth and squint my eyes, I can not MAKE myself believe on the basis of simple faith. I wish I could.
If you told me that 200 pound mushrooms existed in your back yard, I would have to either trust what you say is true or come and see for myself that they do in fact exist. I am a skeptic, I wish sometimes I was not. It is just impossible for me to accept claims of the supernatural. I respect your beliefs as beliefs, but claims of facts must be supported or will be met with a skeptical eye. And as I said before I believe 'life' is miraculous.

"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Spiritman.8m, posted 08-18-2004 1:50 AM Spiritman.8m has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Spiritman.8m, posted 08-18-2004 10:47 PM 1.61803 has not replied

Spiritman.8m
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 55 (135123)
08-18-2004 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by 1.61803
08-18-2004 3:49 PM


Re: belief
1.61803
Sure ... I understand your view & outlook on that
I myself only believed because I saw it for myself...
See messages 46, 47

Spiritman.8m

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by 1.61803, posted 08-18-2004 3:49 PM 1.61803 has not replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5898 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 50 of 55 (135134)
08-19-2004 12:45 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Spiritman.8m
08-18-2004 1:28 PM


Re: 'Believe"
Spiritman.8m
I am using & showing the use in the Bible, 'Believe' as a trust in something that there is evidence for and can be shown.
How so sir? Precisely what is it that convinces you that such is the case?If there is evidence how is your confidence level dependant upon your belief? If so why? If not, what is the need for faith?
That is the point of good evidence,it is the same regardless of your state of mind.
You are only to believe TRUTH, and truth has some evidence backing it up!!!
Ah,but the crucial difference in your thought experment is that the mushroom is a physical entity of which I am familiar and even unfamiliar mushrooms may be identified with ease as mushrooms.How do you intend to verify something without the means to show an actual entity?
Perhaps you will visit here in the near future.
I had intended to come to the coast this year since my family is mainly all there and I even intended to visit Nosyned, who is on this forum, to visit old stomping grounds{Langley} and pick those wonderful wild berries of the west coast.The weather has fouled up my plans this year since I am in roofing and our jobs have been constantly slam dunked over and over so money is tight this year. I am taking my wife and child down to the coast next year for a family reunion and I will do my best to stretch my vacation to 3weeks and drop by for a cup of tea.Anyway time is kicking on towards my bedtime so I will get back to you sometime tomorrow.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Spiritman.8m, posted 08-18-2004 1:28 PM Spiritman.8m has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Spiritman.8m, posted 08-19-2004 3:04 AM sidelined has replied

Spiritman.8m
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 55 (135164)
08-19-2004 3:04 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by sidelined
08-19-2004 12:45 AM


Re: 'Believe"
Sidelined
Ok - tea it is ... next year!
I'm impresssed ... all very good and practical points.
The difference is that 'object of belief'. Yes I agree that you cannot see God or other spirits any more than you can see the wind or gravity! You can however find evidence that the spiritual realm exists and that one of the many entities active in it is God, who is supreme in his position over the soup-bowl we exist in.
I'll tell you a secret; You can't really believe God exists without Him helping you. It is His Spirit that gives you understanding, so you must trust Him in order for Him to show Himself to you personally!
This is what your position is and I agree it seems contradictory.
The evidence can be found to show God as real to you. You then must take the next step to put trust in what you know to be real and true, God does the rest ... It is a relational trust from your heart in what you have come to have confidence in based on the evidence.

Spiritman.8m

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by sidelined, posted 08-19-2004 12:45 AM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by sidelined, posted 08-19-2004 8:41 AM Spiritman.8m has replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5898 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 52 of 55 (135196)
08-19-2004 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Spiritman.8m
08-19-2004 3:04 AM


Re: 'Believe"
Spiritman.8m
You can't really believe God exists without Him helping you
Aye, there's the rub.If he won't help me not much sense in searching is there? This is because if he were real and came calling {and I could rule out ordinary things such as that brain section of ours that induces such feelings} there would be no need on my part to trust that he is there to begin with.
The evidence can be found to show God as real to you.You then must take the next step to put trust in what you know to be real and true
Well,there you go, such is the difficulty since we have wildy varying standards of evidence.You have also the difficult task of explaining why one needs trust to find evidence for that which one presumably knows to be real and true.
Sir,if you know it to be real and true without evidence how can you,except you first believe,know god exists in order to be shown the evidence? That is a subtle form of fooling yourself in order to find that which you wish to find in the first place. It is highly suspect,since if you first place yourself in that position of belief you have then put your brain into a search mode to find support for the belief while at the same time put blinders on to that which contradicts such a stance.
Anyhow, I am sure tea in Whistler {being an atheist as I am} would be the equivalent to me of having gone to heaven and found it filled with all my wildest hopes and dreams. I assume you ski?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Spiritman.8m, posted 08-19-2004 3:04 AM Spiritman.8m has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Spiritman.8m, posted 08-19-2004 1:13 PM sidelined has replied

Spiritman.8m
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 55 (135258)
08-19-2004 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by sidelined
08-19-2004 8:41 AM


Re: 'Believe"
Sidelined
I am trying to show a slightly different perspective than that,
Let's see if I can get it this time...
Your trust in Him is what He responds to in revealing Himself to you. Of course you require evidence that He is there to trust in Him.
The evidence you search for doesn't require faith but a desire to find the truth. No faith required for something you can see for yourself! When the evidence shows the existence of what is true, then you put your trust in Him who the evidence shows is true.
At that point you must choose to put your trust in Him in order to go any further(that's your part). "... for anyone who comes to God must believe He exists and rewards those who earnestly seek Him."
I don't expect you to put the cart before the horse!
You assume I ski ... because I live in a ski resort, ah well I used to years ago before moving here. Sadly I don't partake in any of the recreational activities around here. I just enjoy working in the environment. We don't have to limit it to tea you know, we could have a beer...

Spiritman.8m

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by sidelined, posted 08-19-2004 8:41 AM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by sidelined, posted 08-19-2004 8:15 PM Spiritman.8m has replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5898 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 54 of 55 (135418)
08-19-2004 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Spiritman.8m
08-19-2004 1:13 PM


Re: 'Believe"
Spiritman.8m
The evidence you search for doesn't require faith but a desire to find the truth
Then I am done as I do not seek the truth but only a good laugh.So I guess god will have to reveal himself to another.
I do not believe I did assume you skied however with the sheer volume of trails there it is a shame.No we do not need to limit ourselves to tea but due to a misspent youth {or not somedays I cannot tell} my liver responds to alchohol by choking the blazes out of my guts. I would however settle for coffee or juices for myself and watch you with envy while you consume beer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Spiritman.8m, posted 08-19-2004 1:13 PM Spiritman.8m has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Spiritman.8m, posted 08-19-2004 11:36 PM sidelined has not replied

Spiritman.8m
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 55 (135482)
08-19-2004 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by sidelined
08-19-2004 8:15 PM


Re: 'Believe"
Well there you go ... at least you're honest about it.
You know it's your choice, and God waits patiently by watching to see if you change your mind...
I like juice too!

Spiritman.8m

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by sidelined, posted 08-19-2004 8:15 PM sidelined has not replied

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