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Author Topic:   what is feminism?
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 147 (143872)
09-22-2004 10:59 AM


The identification of a "one true feminism" is pointless, but I too would like to see a response to this question. Because it seems to me that the allegations levelled at the womens studies courses are essentially character assassination. As I see it, if the feminist criticism of society as male-domnated is correct - and I think it is - then it is entirely appropriate to systematically develop an alternate analysis based on presumptions other than those that commonly prevail.
I will agree that there are elements of the feminist movement which present arguments with which I disagree; but I do not therefore conclude that all feminism is nonsense by association. I'm entirely capable of criticising individuals, or tendencies, or ideologies, without using such a broad brush. So for those who DO assert that faminism is and must be a specific and particular set of arguments, please also explain how this invalidates all OTHER arguments that go under the term feminism.
I find this expecially ironic in the Western context of the two party system, in which we are all well used to movements being broader than singular issues, and containing multuiple tendencies, factions et al. Do Democrat voters here hostile to Al Sharpton accept that Al Sharpton invalidates all aspects of the Democratuic platform? Do Repbulicans critical of Trent Lott therefore also believe the entire Republican party is delegitimised? I've never seen this at all.
I don't believe this criticism is valid. It reeks of parroting conventional wisdom to me.
This message has been edited by contracycle, 09-22-2004 10:03 AM

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 147 (144019)
09-23-2004 4:34 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Silent H
09-22-2004 12:32 PM


quote:
That does not make it less feminist, just not ONLY feminist, and certainly not the FACE of feminism.
So who is?
you've thrown plenty of stones at Feminism yourself, Holmes, so who do you hold to be the face of feminism, and why?
Because people keep saying feminism this, feminism that, and using slanderous terms like femi-nazis, so I want to know who this disreputable face of feminism is. Cough it up.
Or you, born to preach. Put your money where your mouth is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Silent H, posted 09-22-2004 12:32 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Silent H, posted 09-23-2004 5:04 AM contracycle has replied
 Message 16 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 09-23-2004 7:47 PM contracycle has replied

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 147 (144031)
09-23-2004 5:59 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Silent H
09-23-2004 5:04 AM


quote:
I throw stones at everyone, but with regard to knocking feminISTS (I dare you to find me knocking feminISM) I made it clear I was going after the prudish anti-sex anti-porn anti-male feminist factions.
Ah, Holmes. You were a fool to challenge me to show you attacking feminists when I had compiled a list of such attacks in the porn thread already:
quote:5- Where, specifically, holmes has abused feminists.
quote:
Please do not use books from feminist authors, nor sold for a woman audience. Make it real research, academic.
Becuase of course Feminism cant be real academic reserach, and nothing wrotten for a women audience could possibly be legitimate. (although, in this thread, its the turn to knock academic feminism. No form of feminism is acceptable, apparently).
quote:
These fantasies may always be deconstructed of course, which is what feminists do in a very subjective manner.
Feminists of course are subjective, as is only to be expected of meotional, irrational women. Unlike anti-feminists who are coldy rational and analytical.
quote:
I am stating that the feminist position is that all porn is mysogynistic.
Thus totally contradicting yourt later claims to have attacked only individuals...
quote:
It is not up to the people being attacked by feminists to go and correct them, it is the duty of the feminists to get their arguments straight in the first place.
Note the total absence of qualifications. Feminists must get their arguments straight. Not this person or that person, all Feminists.
quote:
The example I gave was specific and accurate. It shows the underlying PROBLEM of feminist critiques of porn. In a rush to judge, they grab on to whatever soundbytes sound damning, but have no connection to what porn is about or how it is used.
displays confrimation of bias; presumes the only basis for objection is the irrationality and ignorance of the critic, cos of course if Feminists were informed they not be feminists. Ahuh. And again the lack of any qualification of feminist.
quote:
But this is yet another problem engaged in by feminist critics.
... and yet again. The later conceit you adopted of distinguishing between pro-porn feminists (whom you like, and consider raitonal, becuase they agree with you) and anti-porn feminists (whom you dislike becuase they do not agree with you. amnd hence call irrational) came far too late in the day to be convincing.
quote:
I'm very tired of you asking me to represent "people" I have no connection with and do things I have not done. Cut it out.
I didn;t ask you to reprersent anyone; I only asked you who the Bad Feminists are. If feminism is as badly discredited by these Bad Femnists as you claim, surely they should be easy to identify?
No? How about you, brennakimi, who are your Feminist Evildoers? Born2Preach? I doubt you could name ANY feminist at all, but I'd be willing to accept your nominations.
Come on people. "everyone knows" that feminism is nuts, discredited... don't they?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Silent H, posted 09-23-2004 5:04 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Silent H, posted 09-23-2004 8:59 AM contracycle has not replied
 Message 19 by arachnophilia, posted 09-23-2004 8:44 PM contracycle has replied

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 147 (144050)
09-23-2004 10:18 AM


I don't particularly care either, I just want holmes to give us the names of these "anti-porn feminists" who are, allegedly, bringing feminism into disrepute.
I imagine Born2Preach will then give us his list of anti-marriage feminsts who, by being anti-marriage, bringing feminism into disrepute.
In neither case do I expect Holmes or B2P to actually engaged with one or other femninist critique about porn or marriage.

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 147 (144415)
09-24-2004 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by arachnophilia
09-23-2004 8:44 PM


quote:
for instance, certain camps reject methodological naturalism, because it was devised by a chauvenist. they reject particle and quantum physics because there aren't enough women in the field.
Sure. And on the odd occassion, you'll find someone waxing lyrical about the mysticism of the moon. But thats exactly why I raise the question - why is it legitimate to criticise feminism en bloc in a manner which would not be legitimate in any other sphere?
It seems to me that much of this criticism is misogynistic; it is the application of collective punishment. All feminist arguments must be dismissed because of a few nutters who have arrogated to themselves the term feminist.
quote:
we scorn creationists when they do things equally as stupid, and say things to the extent of personal beliefs being immaterial. but when we scorn feminist authors for doing the same thing -- asserting that personal biases are more important -- we get accused of being hate mongers.
Thats an appeal for pity. It does not happen when you criticise AUTHORS. It does apply when the error of one individual is used as a bat to beat other individuals, even though they were not complicit in the original error.
quote:
it's also because, not to sound to overly chauvinistic, there really is no pleasing an academic feminist. the entire subject is devoted to "problematizing" thing. inequalities always seem to favor men, whichever way they go
I say thats an appeal to the irrational female stereotype.
Now I will say that I am broadly critical of the "academic" post-modern strand, and as I see it it carries all the problems of post-modernism, including the uncritical acceptance of the consumerist argument to the application of social leverage. So I agree that quite a lot of this strand of analysis is, IMO, counterproductive - and thus we end up with absurdities such as lipstick being retailed as a feminist product because it makes you look good/feel good.
But I disagree with you that there is a great deal of problematising; that is only to argue your own conclusion. If someone argues that practice X is symptomatic of oppression, you need to engage with their analysis, not just dismiss it as creating problems were none exist. As I shall now show:
quote:
in the english language, the gender neutral case is male by default. so when we don't know a person's gender, or we're talking about people in general we say he, him, his, etc. this is unfair to women, of course. but make it she, her and hers, and it's robbing women of their gender identity. the only solution is mangle the language: turn everything into the plural even when it's singular, or do the tacky his/hers thing. (i'm using "it" from now on, and if it makes you feel like an object, don't blame me)
The English language is not some objectively external phenomenon over which we have no control; it is a tool at our disposal.
Your argument is prima facie contradictory: first you acnkowledge that by default we use "him" to refer to "her", but then object to the use of "it" because it denies female gender identity. Well, so does the generic use of "he"; so this offers no solution and no objection to a proposed solution.
Second, its unlikely that any change would in practice rob anyone of their gender identity, as its embedded so often: geder-specific names, and titles, make it nearly impossible to talk about anyone without conveying their gender, even if using a generic pronoun.
Third, the allegation that this is a "mangling" of the language is contestable. As I understand it, the deliberate and formal adoption of the MALE specific pronoun as the generic pronoun only occurred in the C18th, 1783 IIRC. Certainly, if you read English Napoleonic-era naval dipsatches, as I have done, they DO use the plural pronoun for the generic pronoun; there is a good case to be made that the use of the male pronoun is in fact "mangling the language".
Thus, the allegation that feminism "problematises" issues that do not exist, and propose "silly" solutions like changing the language, is falsified: because the Feminist position is only to reverse a change to an older form of English which, they argue, is eliminates some of the misogyny in the current version.
And as THAT shows, the argument is much more solidly based than just "problematising" an issue by people who can "never be pleased". And both of those arguments seem to be an appeal to an implicit irrationality of feminism.
It seems to me that in fact it is those who oppose feminism who problematise unnecessarily, and can never be satisifed. There would be not much lost if we altered the lnaguage again to is pre- C.19th structure, and ceertainly society would not come crashging down. What do we have to lose by making this change and not subsuming 50% of our populace into the other 50%? So why the vehement resistance? Why the accusations of "problematising"?
This message has been edited by contracycle, 09-24-2004 10:07 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by arachnophilia, posted 09-23-2004 8:44 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by macaroniandcheese, posted 09-24-2004 3:07 PM contracycle has not replied
 Message 37 by arachnophilia, posted 09-25-2004 6:10 PM contracycle has not replied

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 147 (144416)
09-24-2004 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Silent H
09-24-2004 5:46 AM


quote:
I even noted proporn feminist authors who I like (I think I did in this thread as well), and contrasted them with those that were antiporn.
Actually, as you well now, I attacked your blunderbuss blasts at Feminism precisely because some feminist authoers do support porn, at which point you backpeddled with shameful haste.
quote:
The quote was pulled from a post where I was specifically talking about antiporn feminist critiques of porn and so had not felt the need to say antiporn every time I said feminist.
Pull the other one, its got bells on.
This message has been edited by contracycle, 09-24-2004 10:10 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Silent H, posted 09-24-2004 5:46 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Silent H, posted 09-24-2004 1:52 PM contracycle has not replied

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 147 (144417)
09-24-2004 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by One_Charred_Wing
09-23-2004 7:47 PM


Re: Somebody needs a nap
quote:
Look, it's starting to seem like you have some kind of grudge against me for telling racist jokes way back then. I'm not racist or sexist, crapcycle. Get over it
Your protestations achieve nothing, your behaviour is consistently biggotted, and you remain racist scum.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 09-23-2004 7:47 PM One_Charred_Wing has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 09-25-2004 1:38 PM contracycle has not replied

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 147 (194914)
03-28-2005 7:30 AM


Umm, so whats new here? Women play a central role in their own oppression - this is standard stuff and inherent to an analysis of social conditioning. Thats exactly why it takes action and determination to bring about change, not merely piously hoping for better.
This message has been edited by contracycle, 03-28-2005 07:32 AM

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by crashfrog, posted 03-28-2005 8:34 PM contracycle has not replied

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 122 of 147 (195982)
04-01-2005 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by nator
03-29-2005 1:28 PM


quote:
But a great effect upon the greater popular culture? Especially an effect with far-reaching, profound or at least noticeable effects on many people's every day lives? Eh, I just don't see it.
I think the effects of feminism on popular culture can be discerned from the ease with which "bitch" passed into widely-used acceptable slang: that is, pretty much nil.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by nator, posted 03-29-2005 1:28 PM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by crashfrog, posted 04-01-2005 3:17 PM contracycle has replied
 Message 143 by mick, posted 04-04-2005 2:32 PM contracycle has not replied

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 140 of 147 (196637)
04-04-2005 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by crashfrog
04-01-2005 3:17 PM


quote:
You don't see that as a fairly effective example of word reclaimation?
Absolutely not - I'm dubious about the idea of "reclaiming" stereotypes anyway, and am of the view that it mostly comprises pandering to said stereotype rather than challenging it.
But bitch was a term of abuse before it passed out of rap into the mainstream as referring to a pimps bitches. That sense of bitch passed right into the mainstream - demonstrating that this statement of dominance and ownership did not get a rough ride from the main stream at all. And now this is so widespread that "not being so-and-so's bitch" or similar sentiments are commonplace.
If feminism had any grip at all on our popular culture, this should have been resisted. But it fact it was welcomed and disseminated with anti-PC glee. The idea that world is overrun by interventionist feminists is so absurd that I regard people who advance the claim as paranoiacs. Probably the single greatest effect feminism has had on mainstream pop culture was the semi-removal of the Miss World cattleshow.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by crashfrog, posted 04-01-2005 3:17 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by pink sasquatch, posted 04-04-2005 6:19 PM contracycle has replied

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 146 of 147 (196862)
04-05-2005 6:34 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by pink sasquatch
04-04-2005 6:19 PM


Re: you're referring to the unreclaimed derogatory
quote:
"Bitch" has another connotation entirely that you are ignoring; one of being strong and true to your own personality without apology to those you offend along the way.
Thats the old usage of bitch as a not-too-offensive term, rather like "bastard" for men. I already acknowledged it had an existing career as an insult.
This message has been edited by contracycle, 04-05-2005 05:38 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by pink sasquatch, posted 04-04-2005 6:19 PM pink sasquatch has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by pink sasquatch, posted 04-05-2005 10:23 AM contracycle has not replied

  
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