Who can be saved? A Christian perspective

I don't know where you got the idea I was brought up a Catholic. I wasn't. Protestant all the way.I have to ask you a couple questions though. First, do you think GOD is superior to humans?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Sorry. I don't know where I picked it up, either. Yes. Do you think that human wisdom is our only reliable source? Belief in God, abstract though it may seem, qualifies as a concrete source of wisdom apart from human derived.

Okay, would you say that the difference between GOD and man is equal to that between a man and a chimp?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

No. There is a measureable difference between a man and a monkey or even a dolphin. There is an infinite difference between a man and God.
If Humanity= 10, Divinity= --->Infinity

Would you say that the difference is greater than between a human and, say, an ant?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

(I know that you are setting me up, but...) Yes...much greater.
Again, infinitely greater. Greater than the difference between a human and an amoeba.

Honestly, there is no desire to set you up but rather all I'm trying to do is explain my beliefs and position. I tend to agree, the difference is infintely greater than between a human and an amoeba.I happen to believe that GOD created the universe, has an inate understanding of the actual relattionship between gravity and all the other forces. Would you say that is accurate?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Yes. God understands the known and unknown Laws of the Universe. He can even transcend them in theory,(miracles,supernatural manifestations) yet does not choose to do so in general. He operates within the context of what we know as reality. He understands our limited knowledge and the vast gulf that seperates our understanding. He is not interested in "showing off" to us. His desire is that we recognize our need for Him. He desires our love and worship NOT for His own Ego, but for our own good.This message has been edited by Phatboy, 10-04-2004 11:08 AM

Okay, so we have a being that is far greater from us than we are from an amoeba, that created the whole universe, that inately understands all of the rules that govern this universe and in all of its complexity.I simply cannot believe that any such being would condemn folk to hell simply because they denied he existed. Such a being might get a chuckle out of it but that is about the greatest reaction.I realize that there are many who disagree, but for me, any such exclusionary acts would be far more likely from some bling-bling pimp-daddy selling dreams on the corner.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

But this is a strawman of bibleGod Jar. It's our sins that condemn us. I mean, it's like I said to Rrhain, trying to drive it into his brain --> That God in the bible punishes people when they have sinned. It's all good and well to take up the big bad sky daddy position, as long as you know that infact it's only the unbelievers who take this position upon themselves. The whole point of Christ's suffering is to pay for our sins,now only HE ever done this, and he is from God to do it.Test to see if I am wrong about sin, go through the list of bible quote mining any nonebeliever offers you concerning big bad sky daddy, and read what happens before the quote - I gauruntee you will find sin being the prevailent cause of God's wrath. THE WHOLE OT is a long list of man getting sinful/wicked and God getting angry. Now this time in the NT, God says he gets angry if you don't believe in his only begotten Son. Are we condemned already? Why already are we condemned? I'll give a clue --> "Let he without sin cast the first stone". Why didn't you know - everybody is fallible, even those scientific atheists you do favour so very much, Jarry boy. If everybody is imperfect, how can we put on perfection?

That is a pretty simplistic way to look at the issue. Sure you are right in most cases in biblical contexts as to gods wrath (although I would count Job's issues as having received quite a bit of wrath for no reason.) Now when you say that God punishes for sin, you may be right (if I were to believe in God in the first place.) Still, sin is defined in many ways. To worship any other God (according to Mosaic law, and implied prior to) is a condemnable sin. Yet Christianity has not always been as widely known as it is now. This means for centuries, people have been living in sin, and are being condemned for not knowing any better. Would you count this as justifiable retribution, or the big bad guy in the sky?

Outrage, heck, if I wanted outrage, I could be much more colorful than that.However, I was pointing out that the CHristian insistance on 'Christ for Salvation' only matters to Christians, not to anyone else. No one else thinks belief in Christ as a god means anything at all.

Mike, in the discussion with PB we were speaking specifically of denying GOD's existence. The question was, "Can someone who denies GOD's very existence be saved?"IMHO, the answer is yes.Here is a section from the 1979 BCP that I believe covers the subject well. The really important part is "... by his one oblation of himself once offered, a full, perfect, and sufficient sacrifice, oblation, and satisfaction, for the sins of the whole world...".For the sins of the whole world. Not for the sins of christians. Not for the sins of believers. Not for the sins of the few, but for the sins of the whole world.Christ died for the sins of the world. Everyone. All of us, sinner and saint, believer and non-believer.Just as someone's belief in the existence or non-existence of GOD has no bearing on whether or not GOD exists, belief has no bearing on the fact that Christ died for the forgivness of our sins. Christ died for those who believe in him, and those who do not.We, as Christians, are commanded to remember that sacrifice, but the gift was freely given to all.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Notice how the unbelievers gather when mike speaks? You see, they have this daft idea that it's acceptable to say " you unbelievers won't perish " rather than simply not judge them at all. I guess they prefer Jar's gospel.I wonder why they don't gather against Jar, and the unbeliever- friendly teachings thereof.. If it's not Job - it's any bad sky daddy quote mining they can muster. And they keep their silence about Christ's example.Is that a biblical scripture you provided Jar? I couldn't find it - can you tell me the chapter and verse, thanks. Cos if it ain't biblical - you don't seriously expect me to take it over Christ's words do you? Pa-lease let's not define words - don't go Rrhain on me.Let's just pretend mike recognises what sin is - him being repentant and all.I can imagine your unbeliever thoughts as I type this......." Hmmmmm, that;s true - we do quote mine making God look bad, *bingo* - I'll do what all the others do and start saying define this, define that".

Actually Mike, I was pretty sure I gave the sources. Let me see?

quote:

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Here is a section from the 1979 BCP that I believe covers the subject well.

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All glory be to thee, Almighty God, our heavenly Father, for
that thou, of thy tender mercy, didst give thine only Son Jesus
Christ to suffer death upon the cross for our redemption; who
made there, by his one oblation of himself once offered, a full,
perfect, and sufficient sacrifice, oblation, and satisfaction, for
the sins of the whole world; and did institute, and in his holy
Gospel command us to continue, a perpetual memory of that
his precious death and sacrifice, until his coming again.

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Yup, sourced that sucker. Nope Mike, I have never expected you to accept anything I say. But are you saying that Jesus wasn't a full and sufficient sacrifice for the sins of the world?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion