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Author
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Topic: Who can be saved? A Christian perspective
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MrPhy42
Inactive Member
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One, why would I start taking sides, and why would I have anything against you, I just joined this site today, and know none of you. You wanted to make a point, but then criticize me for thinking if you are going to tell us "how it is" you may want to define it. I was simplyresponding to you telling us the "facts". And then you think it is some kind of rebuttle to jump on people for wanting clarity in the so called facts you provide? If you know the facts, this should be easy for you. If you feel there should be nothing wrong with saying the non believers will be condemned, why not just answer the question. You act as if the answers are simple, so it should be just as simple to clarify them. Look, I don't know you, I have never spoken to you, and I know nothing about you, so playing the Christian martyr being attacked by the simple minded non believers wont work here. I simply asked for clarification on what you are calling facts. I think if we are going to talk about undeniable eternal damnation, and if you are going to tell us that it is a fact, you have an obligation to back it up with some clarification. This is pretty serious stuff to be vague about if you are truely giving facts.
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dpardo
Inactive Member
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Message 47 of 466 (147304)
10-04-2004 9:04 PM
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Reply to: Message 7 by jar
09-11-2004 4:31 PM
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Hi Jar, You wrote:
"Jesus said that there are two commandments, Love god and the two parter, love others as you love yourself. Basically, that's it, love GOD and love others as you love yourself. So the question is, "Do you have to acknowledge GOD or even believe in GOD to Love GOD?" IMHO and according to the Bible, the answer is "No. You can love GOD without acknowledging GOD or even if you deny GOD's very existence." What does it mean to love God, or anyone for that matter?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 7 by jar, posted 09-11-2004 4:31 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 48 by jar, posted 10-04-2004 9:08 PM | | dpardo has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 48 of 466 (147306)
10-04-2004 9:08 PM
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Reply to: Message 47 by dpardo
10-04-2004 9:04 PM
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Well, as I've pointed out a few times before, Matthew 25 pretty well covers that.
31: When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37: Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38: When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39: Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40: And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44: Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45: Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 47 by dpardo, posted 10-04-2004 9:04 PM | | dpardo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 49 by dpardo, posted 10-04-2004 9:15 PM | | jar has replied |
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dpardo
Inactive Member
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Message 49 of 466 (147308)
10-04-2004 9:15 PM
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Reply to: Message 48 by jar
10-04-2004 9:08 PM
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From your quote of Matthew 25, it seems that you define love as being action rather than just a feeling. Is this a fair assessment?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 48 by jar, posted 10-04-2004 9:08 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 51 by jar, posted 10-04-2004 9:35 PM | | dpardo has replied |
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mike the wiz
Member Posts: 4755 From: u.k Joined: 05-24-2003
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Message 50 of 466 (147309)
10-04-2004 9:29 PM
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Reply to: Message 46 by MrPhy42
10-04-2004 8:55 PM
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You'll soon get used to mike-language. 
If you feel there should be nothing wrong with saying the non believers will be condemned, why not just answer the question. You'd like me to say that - but I have no intention of judging who and who will not go to heaven or hell. Read back in this topic if you are a newbie, and see that I infact take the stance of not judging at all. Or you can look in the F&B section for a topic called, "Dear fellow christians, judge not lest you be judged". This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 10-04-2004 08:30 PM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 46 by MrPhy42, posted 10-04-2004 8:55 PM | | MrPhy42 has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 51 of 466 (147311)
10-04-2004 9:35 PM
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Reply to: Message 49 by dpardo
10-04-2004 9:15 PM
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Not exactly. There is certainly an emotional content to love, but the emotion is little without the behaviors that go with it. As my mommy used to say, "Actions speak louder than words". The important part of Matthew 25 is the questions that the two parties asked.
37: Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38: When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39: Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? They are completely confused, honestly puzzled. They did not do the things mentioned to curry favor, they did not do the things specifically for reward; instead they did them because it is what should be done.
44: Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Those rejected too are honestly puzzled. They know they always did what was expected of them and would certainly done anything for Jesus. They were among the chosen. They acknowledged Jesus and really asked him, "Hey bossman, when did we see you needing help and NOT aid you? Come on, you know we were there for you all the way. You can't get on us since you we would have done those things if we found YOU in prison, hungry, thirsty or naked.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 49 by dpardo, posted 10-04-2004 9:15 PM | | dpardo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 64 by dpardo, posted 10-05-2004 1:40 AM | | jar has replied |
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mike the wiz
Member Posts: 4755 From: u.k Joined: 05-24-2003
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Message 52 of 466 (147312)
10-04-2004 9:41 PM
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Reply to: Message 45 by jar
10-04-2004 8:55 PM
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Nope Mike, I have never expected you to accept anything I say. But are you saying that Jesus wasn't a full and sufficient sacrifice for the sins of the world? Why don't you expect me to accept anything you say Jar? Do you think I am against you? What is the BCP? Am I expected to know these initials? Jar, the only difference between our views in this thread is slight, it's just that my tongue is far more radical. Think about it, all most of my talk is jive to ignite flames amongst unbelievers - which amuses me highly. But all I have said is that I will judge no-one. Likewise - I suppose you haven't judged, but you have suggested a belief in Christ isn't necessary. - I only seek the truth of what God said, and it's not just the seperation of the sheep from the goat. The things you preach is if your honest, not the normal version. Remember the Gospel message is Christ. How can people receive that which God has for them if they don't know him? He says ask anything in prayer, and if it be according to God's will, it will be added unto you. How can people be healed if they doubt and don't believe? How can they receive?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 45 by jar, posted 10-04-2004 8:55 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 54 by jar, posted 10-04-2004 10:00 PM | | mike the wiz has not replied |
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MrPhy42
Inactive Member
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Re: Minnesota Phats and Jar Jar Blinks
"Notice how the unbelievers gather when mike speaks? You see, they have this daft idea that it's acceptable to say " you unbelievers won't perish " rather than simply not judge them at all. I guess they prefer Jar's gospel." If you were not confirming that you yourself had taken an opposing stance to Jar's I don't know what it says. That is what I got from it. There are three points of view at work here. Jar's; you do not have to be a Christian to achieve redemption. The other side; only those that believe in Jesus may find redemption. Non-Believers; doesn't matter either way. Now seeing as you seemed to oppose Jar's view, and the fact that you refer to others as non-believers, I only see one option left. As you only show opposition to Jar's view, and nothing in support of it, I find it almost impossible to see the neutral nature of your comments. Because of this I could only assume (along with your comment's trying to say that God is not any type of bully, and you tried to justify it through biblical reference) that this was the stance you had taken. Since you were making a point against the God=Bully mentality, I was simply putting forth a question based on the subjects of redemption, and the bully mentality of God. You brought up the subject matter (redemption believers/non-believers, sin and condemnation) yourself, I did nothing more than question it. This message has been edited by MrPhy42, 10-04-2004 08:56 PM
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jar
Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Why don't you expect me to accept anything you say Jar? I hope no one simply accepts what I say. That is the old "from authority" trap. I hope that everyone will take the information I provide, consider it, check their own sources and make up their own mind. BCP is the Book of Common Prayer, a wonderful source that I've been exploring for many years yet still find fresh.
He says ask anything in prayer, and if it be according to God's will, it will be added unto you. How can people be healed if they doubt and don't believe? How can they receive? Do you think GOD only notices us when we ask for things?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 52 by mike the wiz, posted 10-04-2004 9:41 PM | | mike the wiz has not replied |
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mike the wiz
Member Posts: 4755 From: u.k Joined: 05-24-2003
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Message 55 of 466 (147320)
10-04-2004 10:03 PM
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Reply to: Message 53 by MrPhy42
10-04-2004 9:53 PM
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Re: Minnesota Phats and Jar Jar Blinks
You're reading too much into this. In logic, people tend to look too much into the information provided. That's why they often derive wrongful conclusions. Jar's position is that you needn't belive in Christ to get to Heaven. I have said that while this is a nice preaching which is most acceptable to the ears of the many, infact Christ seems to say other things which might not support this. Therefore, telling you what other things the bible says, doesn't require that I am saying it. Example; If I say that bob said he thinks himself as an obscene mungrel of discontent. Does that mean I am saying it? Infact my neutral position is that I shall judge not lest I be judged. Now many people preach all of what Christ said - and I believe in what Christ said - but at no time do I become Christ, because I will also stand before the judgement seat of Christ.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 53 by MrPhy42, posted 10-04-2004 9:53 PM | | MrPhy42 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 56 by MrPhy42, posted 10-04-2004 10:11 PM | | mike the wiz has replied | | | Message 57 by MrPhy42, posted 10-04-2004 10:14 PM | | mike the wiz has not replied |
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MrPhy42
Inactive Member
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Re: Minnesota Phats and Jar Jar Blinks
No, Bob could say whatever he likes about himself, but it would not be out of line to ask why Bob would say that. Is Bob depressed, does he have a low opinion of himself because it is true, or because someone else has instilled this mentality in him. Does Bob need help? Who is Bob? Was he serious? These questions are not out of line. The other difference is you are giving a direct quote from someone. We are talking about interpretations. If you gave me an interpretation of what Bob said, I may ask to find out WHY you interpreted him in such a manner, are you correct in said interpretation, was it painted by personal feelings? Maybe it could be interpreted differently. So questions on a topic you speak about in a public forum is not an unfounded thing. You say things in a public forum, people may question it. Simple, nothing more. You can answer questions, or you can ignore them. Either way.
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MrPhy42
Inactive Member
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"In logic, people tend to look too much into the information provided." Yeah, that pesky logic, people questioning things, people looking at the details, always gets in the way.  This message has been edited by MrPhy42, 10-04-2004 09:17 PM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 55 by mike the wiz, posted 10-04-2004 10:03 PM | | mike the wiz has not replied |
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mike the wiz
Member Posts: 4755 From: u.k Joined: 05-24-2003
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Message 58 of 466 (147325)
10-04-2004 10:16 PM
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Reply to: Message 56 by MrPhy42
10-04-2004 10:11 PM
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Re: Minnesota Phats and Jar Jar Blinks
Fair enough. Your post is fair. My point was a logical one though - I may inform you of what Bob says, and believe what he says --> He means, but that doesn't mean I am saying it, I am not Bob - I have no say in the matter.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 56 by MrPhy42, posted 10-04-2004 10:11 PM | | MrPhy42 has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18292 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 59 of 466 (147368)
10-05-2004 12:52 AM
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Reply to: Message 39 by jar
10-04-2004 6:15 PM
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Re: Minnesota Phats and Jar Jar Blinks
jar writes: Okay, so we have a being that is far greater from us than we are from an amoeba, that created the whole universe, that inately understands all of the rules that govern this universe and in all of its complexity. ...I simply cannot believe that any such being would condemn folks to hell simply because they denied he existed. Good point, and I almost agree. God never sends people to Hell, however. People send themselves there by denying God and following a whim or an idea that they conceive to be better. God gives numerous chances for repentance all through the Bible. I would imagine that He has made it very possible (though not easy) for us to avoid conscious denial of Him. By the way, Mike, the BCP which jar described I looked up. Is it this? The Book of Common Prayer is one of the major works of English literature. Since its introduction in the mid-1500's it has exerted enormous influence on the religious and literary lives of all who speak the English language. The Book of Common Prayer has gone through a number of editions, not only in England where it originated, but in all the places where the various Churches of the Anglican communion are now active. Jar, I suppose that the Anglicans had a cool prayer book, but do prayer books count as canonical? Maybe I better back away from THAT discussion, however...or we will be arguing over what, if anything IS Canonical!
 I am editing as you are posting, jar. In answer to your next post I agree with you in that God is SO much greater than us and since, after all, He knows how human nature is, He WILL probably overlook a lot of what we do, say, think, and believe. Doers this absolve those of us who know better, however? We know that we are drawn to love Jesus and His Father with ALL of what we can muster! To those who do not yet feel this way, perhaps God will forgive them anyway. Maybe a "Get out of Hell, Free" card? This message has been edited by Phatboy, 10-05-2004 12:03 AM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 39 by jar, posted 10-04-2004 6:15 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 60 by jar, posted 10-05-2004 12:56 AM | | Phat has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 60 of 466 (147369)
10-05-2004 12:56 AM
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Reply to: Message 59 by Phat
10-05-2004 12:52 AM
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Re: Minnesota Phats and Jar Jar Blinks
Why do you think GOD would even care if someone doesn't believe in him? Would you get upset if an amoeba said you don't exist?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 59 by Phat, posted 10-05-2004 12:52 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 61 by Phat, posted 10-05-2004 1:05 AM | | jar has replied |
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