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Author Topic:   Who can be saved? A Christian perspective
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 166 of 466 (150532)
10-17-2004 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by nator
10-17-2004 4:12 PM


Re: Oxymoron Alert
Shraf - be reasonable, you must see that if a footballer who used to plat football - only now plays tennis - then the definition of footballer doesn't become: " person who plays tennis ".
Is it reasonable and logical for me to deduce - that one who intends to murder and then does it - is a murderer or a christian?
Now - I don't judge who is a christian - or who goes to heaven, so please don't strawman my position. Indeed, all I did was offer a definition of what being Christian is - and it's not playing tennis.
Mike, are you seriously telling me that the fact that the BIBLE, the FOUNDATIONAL HOLY TEXT OF CHRISTIANITY, and if it is taken as literally true in every word or as allegory, is NOT a hugely major part of what Christians have enormour disagreements about?
Shraff - All scotsman believe in porridge - but disagree about how tastey it is.
They do believe that they are going to heaven because they are saving innocent babies.
Shraff - I am ignorant of the issue - I'd rather not judge - but all I can suggest is that murder is against what Christ taught - as that is what my position is in this debate with you. And so, Christ said we are in danger of the Commandment "Do no murder" if we even get angry with our brother.
So - If mike has dreams about going to hell - and fears his sins - would mike fear if he had just murdered someone? Oh - I forgot - Hitler is a christian - but not mike, which u still haven't addressed!
This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 10-17-2004 04:21 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by nator, posted 10-17-2004 4:12 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by nator, posted 10-17-2004 6:10 PM mike the wiz has replied
 Message 175 by nator, posted 10-17-2004 6:34 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 167 of 466 (150533)
10-17-2004 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by nator
10-17-2004 3:59 PM


If God is doing something to end suffering, he is certainly not doing all that is possible for an omnicient, all powerful god.
Listen - Christ isn't under the rule of Shraff - and what she says. Shall I say it again? God's ways/thoughts are higher than ours.
He may be all-powerful, but he cannot be all-powerful AND all-loving if he refuses to do everything in his power (which is infinite, right?) to end needless, horrible suffering.
BBBBzzzzt. Wiz's wager - lower thinking - un-omni Shraff makes an attempt to say what God is and judge him add futility.
This above quote is all Shraffy opinion.
Mike, do humans know the difference between good and evil or not?
Does God know the differencce between good and evil or not?
I answered those questions previously. But our knowing good and evill won't give us the right to judge God - because as I previously said - you have no punishment for the most High = BBBzzzt - wiz's wager - after your talk with God, where will you send him?
A real, verifiable miracle seems like it would be a pretty big deal and would make the papers, at least.
They probably do. There are testimonies from doctors etc. --> I seen a man who looked like an elephant from cancer - and now he is healed. But I have no link - I seen it on the God channel on "Sky television" - I don't even know if it's the same where you live - but you MUST have heard of miracles which your bias has ignored.
Why not just admitt that you think God doesn't exist?
Is god held to at least the same standards of moral responsibility as we humans are?
BBBBzzzt, Wiz's wager - you've earned a chat with God - where are u sending him for his Shraffy-perceived wrong doing?
Do you make a prediction of what the fulfilled prayer "answer" will be before hand, or do you retrofit the "answer" to the prayer afterwords?
There can only be one answer to specific requests.
And so - we have the truth.
This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 10-17-2004 04:18 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by nator, posted 10-17-2004 3:59 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by sidelined, posted 10-17-2004 5:47 PM mike the wiz has replied
 Message 171 by Amlodhi, posted 10-17-2004 6:19 PM mike the wiz has replied
 Message 173 by nator, posted 10-17-2004 6:27 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 168 of 466 (150534)
10-17-2004 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by mike the wiz
10-17-2004 5:16 PM


MTW
Listen - Christ isn't under the rule of Shraff - and what she says. Shall I say it again? God's ways/thoughts are higher than ours.
BBBBzzzzt. Wiz's wager - lower thinking - un-omni Shraff makes an attempt to say what God is and judge him add futility.
How is it that Schraf cannot say what god is in the latter statement yet in the former you tell her that god's thoughts are higher than ours as though you can?

[W]hen people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by mike the wiz, posted 10-17-2004 5:16 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by mike the wiz, posted 10-17-2004 6:03 PM sidelined has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 169 of 466 (150535)
10-17-2004 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by sidelined
10-17-2004 5:47 PM


How is it that Schraf cannot say what god is in the latter statement yet in the former you tell her that god's thoughts are higher than ours as though you can?
But I didn't say it;
Isaiah 55; 9: For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so is my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by sidelined, posted 10-17-2004 5:47 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by sidelined, posted 10-17-2004 6:28 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 170 of 466 (150536)
10-17-2004 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by mike the wiz
10-17-2004 5:07 PM


Re: Oxymoron Alert
quote:
Shraf - be reasonable, you must see that if a footballer who used to plat football - only now plays tennis - then the definition of footballer doesn't become: " person who plays tennis ".
There are universally-accepted criteria for the playing of football and tennis.
There are not hundreds and hundreds of different sets of rules for playing football or tennis which are followed by various groups all claiming to be the "authentic" and "true" players of football and tennis.
No, the rules of football and tennis are pretty much agreed upon by everybody who plays the games in any professional or serious way.
You cannot say that this is true of Christianity.
Each group thinks the others have it wrong about what the "teachings of Jesus" were and how to follow them.
You have a particular way of thinking about it, which disagrees with quite a few sects of Christianity.
Why should I consider you right and all of the others wrong?
quote:
Is it reasonable and logical for me to deduce - that one who intends to murder and then does it - is a murderer or a christian?
The above doesn't answer any of my points at all.
The Christian pro life killers of abortion doctors would say that yes, they are indeed Christians, saving thousands and thousands of babies by killing the baby killers and bombing clinics.
This is a crusade, they say, in which the ends justifies the means.
[qs]Who are you to say otherwise?[qs]
quote:
Now - I don't judge who is a christian - or who goes to heaven, so please don't strawman my position. Indeed, all I did was offer a definition of what being Christian is - and it's not playing tennis.
Mike, you have judged that people who murder cannot be true Christians.
Mike, are you seriously telling me that the fact that the BIBLE, the FOUNDATIONAL HOLY TEXT OF CHRISTIANITY, and if it is taken as literally true in every word or as allegory, is NOT a hugely major part of what Christians have enormous disagreements about?
quote:
Shraff - All scotsman believe in porridge - but disagree about how tastey it is.
Answer the question.
Do Christians disagree over interpreting the Bible literally or as allegory?
Yes or No?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by mike the wiz, posted 10-17-2004 5:07 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by mike the wiz, posted 10-17-2004 6:25 PM nator has replied

  
Amlodhi
Inactive Member


Message 171 of 466 (150537)
10-17-2004 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by mike the wiz
10-17-2004 5:16 PM


Hi mike the wiz,
The point is that, statistically, it appears that we live in an indifferent universe.
The secularist, then, reasons that this is probably because we do live in an indifferent universe.
The apologist's claim is that we can't presume to know how God would do things.
And though either position could conceivably be so, the former is a logical progression based on the observable facts, and the latter is an ad hoc rationalization.
IOW, the first position is a one-to-one correspondence; whereas, the second (apologist) position must (circularly) assume that out of all the options/choices available to God, it just conveniently happens that he acts in such a way that it appears that we live in an indifferent universe.
Amlodhi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by mike the wiz, posted 10-17-2004 5:16 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by mike the wiz, posted 10-17-2004 7:08 PM Amlodhi has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 172 of 466 (150538)
10-17-2004 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by nator
10-17-2004 6:10 PM


Re: Oxymoron Alert
No, the rules of football and tennis are pretty much agreed upon by everybody who plays the games in any professional or serious way.
Can I use that logic aswell please? Can I decide - If I am the one playing?
Each group thinks the others have it wrong about what the "teachings of Jesus" were and how to follow them.
Erm - you haven't actually mentioned a teaching of Jesus though - and I don't see them disagreeing about what Christ taught.
For example - believing the bible - literally or none - isn't a teaching of Christ. The difference IS the denominations. For example - one might think they must attend church and heed creationism - and another might not and heed evolution - but these don't effect Christ's teachings anyway.
Why should I consider you right and all of the others wrong?
Schraff - first show me "another" sects. If their sect incorporates anything against what Christ said - then they've failed the definition I made, - Remember - we are establishing what a christian is - not who is a christian, -- judging particular people.
But nevertheless - me, Buz and Phatboy all agree on the teachings of Christ - despite our diffeerences.
Mike, you have judged that people who murder cannot be true Christians.
No - I haven't. I said that would a murderer be defined better as a murderer, or a christian. The former is logical, therefore - it's like saying " This guy who said he murdered - is a murderer " - is that judging, or simply giving the facts? Remember - this is a hypothetical debate - notice how I avoid the abortion - real life part?
Do Christians disagree over interpreting the Bible literally or as allegory?
Yes or No?
Why? It doesn't matter - Christ didn't teach to either interpret literally or allegorically.
Remember - it's A and B that count!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by nator, posted 10-17-2004 6:10 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by nator, posted 10-17-2004 6:40 PM mike the wiz has not replied
 Message 179 by NosyNed, posted 10-17-2004 7:20 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 173 of 466 (150539)
10-17-2004 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by mike the wiz
10-17-2004 5:16 PM


If God is doing something to end suffering, he is certainly not doing all that is possible for an omnicient, all powerful god.
quote:
Listen - Christ isn't under the rule of Shraff - and what she says. Shall I say it again? God's ways/thoughts are higher than ours.
Do humans know the difference beween good and evil?
Is God held to at least the same moral standard as humans are?
Is God both all-powerful and all-loving?
Why won't you answer these questions? I've asked them three times now.
He may be all-powerful, but he cannot be all-powerful AND all-loving if he refuses to do everything in his power (which is infinite, right?) to end needless, horrible suffering.
quote:
BBBBzzzzt. Wiz's wager - lower thinking - un-omni Shraff makes an attempt to say what God is and judge him add futility.
This above quote is all Shraffy opinion.
You are avoiding the tough questions by falling back on the "mysterious ways" business.
That is a illogical, weak, unfalsifiable argument. Anytime you don't have an answer to a difficult question, you just throw up your hands and say "we don't understand how God works!"
You seem to be very sure of how God works when one of your prayers is answered, though, or when something good happens.
Funny how that is, huh?
Mike, do humans know the difference between good and evil or not?
Does God know the difference between good and evil or not?
quote:
I answered those questions previously. But our knowing good and evill won't give us the right to judge God -
Wrong.
The Bible says that because Adam and Eve ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, we are "as gods", knowing what God knows.
According to the Bible, the good and evil we know about is the same good and evil God knows about.
Is God held to the same moral standards as humans?
A real, verifiable miracle seems like it would be a pretty big deal and would make the papers, at least.
quote:
They probably do. There are testimonies from doctors etc. --> I seen a man who looked like an elephant from cancer - and now he is healed. But I have no link - I seen it on the God channel on "Sky television" - I don't even know if it's the same where you live - but you MUST have heard of miracles which your bias has ignored.
Call me sheltered.
Why don't you find one for me?
quote:
Why not just admitt that you think God doesn't exist?
I don't know if God exists or not, because I have not ever seen any reliable, verifiable evidence for the supernatural in any form.
Additionally, I have no reason to think that, if the supernatural or God/s exist that we would be able to comprehend that being/entity in any way.
So, god is not impossible. God is, however, highly improbable based upon all available evidence.
Is god held to at least the same standards of moral responsibility as we humans are?
quote:
BBBBzzzt, Wiz's wager - you've earned a chat with God - where are u sending him for his Shraffy-perceived wrong doing?
Stop avoiding the question.
A simple yes or no answer is all that is required.
Do you make a prediction of what the fulfilled prayer "answer" will be before hand, or do you retrofit the "answer" to the prayer afterwords?
quote:
There can only be one answer to specific requests.
Right. Do you do it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by mike the wiz, posted 10-17-2004 5:16 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by mike the wiz, posted 10-17-2004 7:19 PM nator has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 174 of 466 (150540)
10-17-2004 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by mike the wiz
10-17-2004 6:03 PM


MTW
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so is my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
And the man who wrote that down is able to do what neither you nor Schraf can?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by mike the wiz, posted 10-17-2004 6:03 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 175 of 466 (150541)
10-17-2004 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by mike the wiz
10-17-2004 5:07 PM


Re: Oxymoron Alert
Mike you avoided addressing my analogy:
quote:
You are right - this is bad. But if God doesn't act when you want him to - does that mean he doesn't act.
If you were being mugged and beaten, and a dozen big police officers walked by and didn't help you, wouldn't you be kind of confused, angry, and indignant?
And wouldn't you be even more annoyed at the police captain, when you went to complain, who told you that those police officers really WERE helping you, you just couldn't tell how, or pointed to the fact that they helped somebody else just the other day?
Do we know the difference between good and evil or not, Mike?
Is god held to at least the same standards of moral responsibility as we humans are?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by mike the wiz, posted 10-17-2004 5:07 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 176 of 466 (150542)
10-17-2004 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by mike the wiz
10-17-2004 6:25 PM


Re: Oxymoron Alert
quote:
Remember - it's A and B that count!
Do all Christians completely agree on how to follow the teachings of Jesus?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by mike the wiz, posted 10-17-2004 6:25 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 177 of 466 (150546)
10-17-2004 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by Amlodhi
10-17-2004 6:19 PM


The point is that, statistically, it appears that we live in an indifferent universe.
Statistically - we don't exist, because chance wouldn't allow it.
"Indifferent"? - Says who? - Says you. The universe might be made a certain way - by God.
The apologist's claim is that we can't presume to know how God would do things.
And I'm pretty sure the scientist christian's claim is that it is hard to know how God would do things - I mean, the cross was a bit of a shock to the Jews you know.
And so - scientists and credible rationalist - scientific hypothesis abiding - super evos, add all the impressive mustard you need neutralist objectivites who believe in God - also don't know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Amlodhi, posted 10-17-2004 6:19 PM Amlodhi has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by nator, posted 10-18-2004 9:21 AM mike the wiz has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 178 of 466 (150549)
10-17-2004 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by nator
10-17-2004 6:27 PM


Notice how mike is being attacked. Let's sit back and look at this then; mike and Jar are discussing who will be saved, and now Shraff and co r against the truth of Christ, and are fighting hard with rhetoric tongues and fruitless endeavours against the most High.
You are avoiding the tough questions by falling back on the "mysterious ways" business.
That's insulting to my belief Shraff - as I believe earnestly that Gos is unfathomable - after all - he created the heavens and the earth - and who can locate him?
That is a illogical, weak, unfalsifiable argument. Anytime you don't have an answer to a difficult question, you just throw up your hands and say "we don't understand how God works!"
But don't believe me - believe the book of Job. I am just believing as I previously have.
The Bible says that because Adam and Eve ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, we are "as gods", knowing what God knows.
It says we have become as "one of us - to know good and evil". - It doesn't say we suddenly earn the right to judge God. BBBzzzzt wiz's wager.
Is God held to the same moral standards as humans?
I answered this Shraffy baba. I said that the shopkeeper doesn't make rules for himself, because he can't steal his own sweets.
Why don't you find one for me?
Don't you watch 700 club in the USA? They sometimes have a testimony.
So, god is not impossible. God is, however, highly improbable based upon all available evidence.
So basically you've just admitted that on evidence, God is highly improbable to you - despite having preached that science doesn't have a say on God.
I say - that based on evidence - it is an absolute certainty that God exists - and my view is just as scientific, because you preach that science says nothing about God.
Get back to the truth - insolent haughty baba.
If you want to look at us at the same level as God concerning morals - you must also only look at God's example - in the flesh.
This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 10-17-2004 06:21 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by nator, posted 10-17-2004 6:27 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by nator, posted 10-18-2004 9:08 AM mike the wiz has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 179 of 466 (150550)
10-17-2004 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by mike the wiz
10-17-2004 6:25 PM


Remember - it's A and B that count!
So Mike since there is no one (or near enough to no one) who follow Christs teachings very well does that mean that there are effectivly no Christians?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by mike the wiz, posted 10-17-2004 6:25 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by mike the wiz, posted 10-17-2004 7:27 PM NosyNed has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 180 of 466 (150552)
10-17-2004 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by NosyNed
10-17-2004 7:20 PM


Re: Remember - it's A and B that count!
Oh come on Ned, that's a blanket isn't it?
Many will follow Christ's teachings as best they can - but some things are blatantly contradictive - like murder etc.
I mean, if Christ says love your enemy???
But yet your side says it's a joke that I call myself christian etc - and other people have been judged here at this forum aswell - but they call Hitler a christian nevertheless. Why is that?
Is your side saying that based on writings at a forum - they can now say that Hitler was christian, yet we aren't because of our Theology?
Is my talk worse than a nazi murderer's actions?
Wow. I mean - if people go this far - then they really must have something against our faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by NosyNed, posted 10-17-2004 7:20 PM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by NosyNed, posted 10-18-2004 12:42 AM mike the wiz has not replied
 Message 183 by nator, posted 10-18-2004 9:12 AM mike the wiz has not replied

  
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