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Author Topic:   Who can be saved? A Christian perspective
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 181 of 466 (150600)
10-18-2004 12:42 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by mike the wiz
10-17-2004 7:27 PM


Contradictory
Ok, so we have it that murderers are, by definition, not Christian. That leaves out Hitler then for sure.
I guess it leaves out the IRA and the protestant gangs too. The witch hunters are left out then as well, right?
The abortion clinic bombers are also, by definition, not Christian then too, right?
How about those who commit adultory? Are they on the Christian side of the line or not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by mike the wiz, posted 10-17-2004 7:27 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 182 of 466 (150691)
10-18-2004 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by mike the wiz
10-17-2004 7:19 PM


quote:
Notice how mike is being attacked. Let's sit back and look at this then; mike and Jar are discussing who will be saved, and now Shraff and co r against the truth of Christ, and are fighting hard with rhetoric tongues and fruitless endeavours against the most High.
Look, you are the one who chased me down in another thread to come over here. This line of conversation is your making.
Your complaints of "being attacked" ring quite hollow, mike.
You are avoiding the tough questions by falling back on the "mysterious ways" business.
quote:
That's insulting to my belief Shraff - as I believe earnestly that Gos is unfathomable - after all - he created the heavens and the earth - and who can locate him?
But when your prayers are answered, you believe that it's God working, right?
God isn't unfathomable to you then, right?
Sorry, you cannot have it both ways. You cannot point to answered prayers and say "God is definitwely at work here! See what wonderful things he does!", and then when something bad is going on say, "Gee, we just don't understand how God works."
That is post hoc reasoniong and wishful thinking bias at it's most blatant.
Why don't you find one for me?
quote:
Don't you watch 700 club in the USA? They sometimes have a testimony.
I have seen testimonies of people who say that their dead pet came back as a ghost to save them from a fire. I have seen testimonies of people who say that they have been abducted by aliens.
Are these the kinds of testimonies you are talking about?
So, god is not impossible. God is, however, highly improbable based upon all available evidence.
quote:
So basically you've just admitted that on evidence, God is highly improbable to you - despite having preached that science doesn't have a say on God.
Science has a say on evidence, though, and probabilities.
I'm also incorporating my non-experience of those "special feelings" of being connected to the Almighty that believers talk about in my personal conclusion.
quote:
I say - that based on evidence - it is an absolute certainty that God exists - and my view is just as scientific, because you preach that science says nothing about God.
What evidence is that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by mike the wiz, posted 10-17-2004 7:19 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 183 of 466 (150692)
10-18-2004 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by mike the wiz
10-17-2004 7:27 PM


Re: Remember - it's A and B that count!
quote:
I mean, if Christ says love your enemy?
Mike, do all Christians completely agree on how to follow Christ'a teachings?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by mike the wiz, posted 10-17-2004 7:27 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 184 of 466 (150695)
10-18-2004 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by mike the wiz
10-17-2004 7:08 PM


The point is that, statistically, it appears that we live in an indifferent universe.
quote:
Statistically - we don't exist, because chance wouldn't allow it.
Irrelevant to the argument. (and wrong)
Please stop trying to avoid questions and distract from the argument being made.
quote:
"Indifferent"? - Says who? - Says you.
No, says MATH.
Are you going to deny that math is valid now, as well as logic, as well as reality?
quote:
The universe might be made a certain way - by God.
...and God seems to have made the universe with the appearance of being indifferent if you look at the MATH, the statistics.
If you were being mugged and beaten, and a dozen big police officers walked by and didn't help you, wouldn't you be kind of confused, angry, and indignant?
And wouldn't you be even more annoyed at the police captain, when you went to complain, who told you that those police officers really WERE helping you, you just couldn't tell how, or pointed to the fact that they helped somebody else just the other day?
Do we know the difference between good and evil or not, Mike?
Is god held to at least the same standards of moral responsibility as we humans are?
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 10-18-2004 08:22 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by mike the wiz, posted 10-17-2004 7:08 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 185 of 466 (150721)
10-18-2004 10:47 AM


I'm going to make one big post to everyone.
Ned writes:
How about those who commit adultory? Are they on the Christian side of the line or not?
Not if this is their continuing pursuit. - When I sin - I fear that I am now not saved anymore!
Christ taught to not commit adultery - but can he forgive? That's not what I am dealing with --> I will leave judgement for him - but rather - I am saying what a christian is, not isn't- and I know you are clever enough to see that some things blatantly contradict christian - by those other things you mentioned in your post.
Okay - I admitt a few discernments can be difficuilt - I will concede that Ned. Life isn't black and white - I will also concede that.
So - in certain instances it can be hard to fathom - but, remember I am defining what a christian is rather than what one isn't. Surely the endeavour should certainly be the outstanding choice, and observed tenacity.
Shraff writes:
Your complaints of "being attacked" ring quite hollow, mike.
Oh come on Shraff - "rhetoric tongues"? --> I was just arsing around.
Shraf writes:
But when your prayers are answered, you believe that it's God working, right?
God isn't unfathomable to you then, right?
Listen - I think all good things are God's working - but I still cannot fathom how he can invisibly intervene etc..
Shrafybaba writes:
That is post hoc reasoniong and wishful thinking bias at it's most blatant.
--> ? -- Listen - I promise I'm objective!
Shraffy writes:
I'm also incorporating my non-experience of those "special feelings" of being connected to the Almighty that believers talk about in my personal conclusion.
No Shraff - you are including special feelings - special feelings of rejection of God - which motivate you to argue with mike earnestly and rigorously - in an endeavour to refute all things concerning God.
And so - these special feelings are your talk - not mine, as I have already said that science doesn't have a say on God. And so - if evidence does then everything evidences God - or nothing would exist.
quote:
mike the wiz-->Statistically - we don't exist, because chance wouldn't allow it.
Shraff writes:
Irrelevant to the argument. (and wrong)
Shraff - do you actually consider that a refutation? The fact is that Math says that the probability of life coming about by chance is highly improbable - now, since you believe in abiogenesis and evolution - then according to math - we don't exist. So just like the strawman fallacy - you use math when it suits you.
But nevertheless - it is a strawman of mike's position anyway - as I haven't said the universe is or isn't indifferent - I infact said " The universe might be made a certain way - by God. " -- And so
Substituting position A (God) - with B(universe) - and then proceeding in refuting B --> Won't refute A.
God is not indifferent.
Jesus Christ came and died for our sins. - And you conveniently ignored me when I mentioned the equality of God in the flesh.
If your position is that we are equal with God - then let's take that further - for fairness. Let us now only look at God's example - in the flesh. Was he indifferent?
Shraffy writes:
Do we know the difference between good and evil or not, Mike?
Is god held to at least the same standards of moral responsibility as we humans are?
You have asked this and I answered way back - wiz's wager - we don't judge God ad shopkeeper analogy.
We know good and evil.

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by Dan Carroll, posted 10-18-2004 11:46 AM mike the wiz has replied
 Message 197 by NosyNed, posted 10-18-2004 2:56 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 186 of 466 (150743)
10-18-2004 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by mike the wiz
10-18-2004 10:47 AM


The fact is that Math says that the probability of life coming about by chance is highly improbable
Cool. Show us the math that led you to this conclusion.

"If I had to write ten jokes about potholders, I don't think I could do it. But I could write ten jokes about Catholicism in the next twenty minutes. I guess I'm drawn to religion because I can be provocative without harming something people really care about, like their cars."
-George Meyer, Simpsons writer

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by mike the wiz, posted 10-18-2004 10:47 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by mike the wiz, posted 10-18-2004 1:40 PM Dan Carroll has replied
 Message 192 by NosyNed, posted 10-18-2004 2:20 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 187 of 466 (150775)
10-18-2004 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Dan Carroll
10-18-2004 11:46 AM


I think it's a well known math amongst evos.
I think they invoke multiple universes to get rid of it - Dawkinisms you see - like with "indifference".
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Dan Carroll, posted 10-18-2004 11:46 AM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by Dan Carroll, posted 10-18-2004 1:45 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 188 of 466 (150776)
10-18-2004 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by mike the wiz
10-18-2004 1:40 PM


I think it's a well known math amongst evos.
I don't know it. Please show it to me.

"If I had to write ten jokes about potholders, I don't think I could do it. But I could write ten jokes about Catholicism in the next twenty minutes. I guess I'm drawn to religion because I can be provocative without harming something people really care about, like their cars."
-George Meyer, Simpsons writer

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by mike the wiz, posted 10-18-2004 1:40 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by mike the wiz, posted 10-18-2004 1:50 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 189 of 466 (150781)
10-18-2004 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by Dan Carroll
10-18-2004 1:45 PM


It's basically a big big number, - since there was no pre-biotic evidence or pre-biotic conditions anyway - abiogenesis is now a no-go, they try and look to Mars - but that's unlikely even with science, because the atmosphere was too dry - no water could exist long enough - so now they look to Europa, and invoke multiple-universe theories.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Dan Carroll, posted 10-18-2004 1:45 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 190 of 466 (150786)
10-18-2004 2:07 PM


.
This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 10-18-2004 01:16 PM

  
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 191 of 466 (150789)
10-18-2004 2:19 PM


Topic drift/contamination alert - This is a theology topic!
The theme is what qualifies one for eternal salvation.
Things not related to that theme are off-topic.
Adminnemooseus

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 192 of 466 (150790)
10-18-2004 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Dan Carroll
10-18-2004 11:46 AM


I was tempted when he did that before
The "fact" of the probability would be interesting if demonstrated.
Too bad it hasn't been done.
Mike, would you open a separate thread on the topic so you can show the calculations?
(added by edit}
There is a new thread proposed to keep this one on topic. That statment has been made by many. They can all use that other thread to support the claim.
This message has been edited by NosyNed, 10-18-2004 01:26 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Dan Carroll, posted 10-18-2004 11:46 AM Dan Carroll has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by mike the wiz, posted 10-18-2004 2:27 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 193 of 466 (150794)
10-18-2004 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by NosyNed
10-18-2004 2:20 PM


Re: I was tempted when he did that before
Ned - I'd love to open a new topic and do that, but I don't like making topics, and feel that if Shraff doesn't have to provide back up for her statistics - neither should I. I hope to get back to the theology - on topic posts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by NosyNed, posted 10-18-2004 2:20 PM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by Dan Carroll, posted 10-18-2004 2:28 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 194 of 466 (150795)
10-18-2004 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by mike the wiz
10-18-2004 2:27 PM


Re: I was tempted when he did that before
Schraf didn't ask you. I did.
The new thread's there, if you want to walk the walk.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by mike the wiz, posted 10-18-2004 2:27 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by mike the wiz, posted 10-18-2004 2:45 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 195 of 466 (150801)
10-18-2004 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by Dan Carroll
10-18-2004 2:28 PM


Re: I was tempted when he did that before
I will provide a post to Ned's topic if it gets put through.
Even though - Shraff and Amhodli were not chased concerning their statistical banter. Which is in my view - highly unfair.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Dan Carroll, posted 10-18-2004 2:28 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by AdminNosy, posted 10-18-2004 2:59 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
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