"I have personally looked into the fossil trees of Joggins,
Nova Scotia and came to the conclusion that most likely NONE
of the upright trees in all of this 14,000 feet of strata
are in situ -- meaning that it seems quite likely that they
were entombed in this strata as a result of a great flood,
such as what we read about in the book of Genesis. For those
who want to know more about why (or how) I came to this
conclusion, go to
Earth Age – The Truth About Earth's Age and click on the
Polystrate Fossil Trees link."
Hwat "Randy S." refers to above is "The "Fossil Forests" of Nova Scotia: A Review of the Literature", Parts 1 and 2, by Randy S. Berg. It can be found at:
The ‘Fossil Forests’ of Nova Scotia – How Old Are They Really? – Earth Age
and
The ‘Fossil Forests’ of Nova Scotia – How Old Are They Really? – Earth Age
Far from proving anything about "most likely NONE of the upright trees in all of
this 14,000 feet of strata are in situ", this article is an excellent example of the sloppy, antiquated, alleged "research" done by Young Earth creationists and how deaf, dumb, and blind they can be to evidence that contradicts their religious beliefs. If a person looks at the "review" by Randy S. Berg, they find that it was focused almost entirely on research published by Dawson and Lyell in the 1840s, 1850s, and 1860s about 140 to 160 years ago with a few "token" citations of modern papers published mentioned. In case of the few relatively token modern papers discussed in this "review", the evidence from them was cited and discussed out-of-context in a most misleading fashion. The antiquity of the papers focused on is a fatal problem, as pioneering as Dawson's and Lyell's work was, it has been long since superceded by numerous other papers. The so-called "review" by Mr. Berg completely ignored these papers and their far more detailed descriptions and interpretations of the lithology, sedimentary structures, paleontology, and innumerable ***fossil soils*** found in the strata exposed at Joggins. Relative to these modern studies, the descriptions of the strata at Joggins given in Dawson's and Lyell's are quite vague and overlook many important details to the point, that they now have little, if any, scientific value and are only of historical interest. Similarly, the figures presented by them would be considered far too vague and diagrammatic to be of any use in any modern discussion of the geology of the Joggins sequence. In short, the so-review by Berg, in part, is scientifically bankrupt in that it focuses almost entirely on research that has been superceded by more detailed studies, which the review almost completely ignores and completely refutes the arguments it makes. Berg's paper is more honestly called "The "Fossil Forests" of Nova Scotia: A Review of the 19th Century Literature (with a Some Token 20th Century Citations Thrown in to Present a False Sense of Completeness)". (Also in the 20th Century citations, papers by either Young Earth creationists, i.e. Coffin, Rupke, Helder, Morris, and Austin, are cited disproportionally more than conventional geologists in respect to the actual number of their published papers about Joggins.)
For example, Davies & Gibling (2003), in their detailed study of the section of strata exposed in cliffs at Joggins, Nova Scotia, found that sedimentary strata consist of distinctive sedimentary facies, undescribed and unrecognized by either Dawson or Lyell in their pioneering, but now antiquated studies. In addition, these distinctive facies occur in repetitive cycles called "rhythms", which were also unrecognized by either Dawson or Lyell in their research. As summarized by Falcon-Lang (2004), Davies & Gibling (2003) found that the:
"Joggins Formation facies associations are
organized into eight sedimentary rhythms in the studied
section (Fig. 2). Rhythms 1 and 5-8 are 25-80 m thick,
and consist of retrogradational poorly drained coastal
plain units overlain by brackish open water units,
capped by progradational poorly drained coastal plain
units. Rhythms 2-4 are 70 m, 30 m and 210 m thick,
respectively, and comprise a very similar succession
differing only in the additional occurrence of multiple
intercalated partially drained and well-drained alluvial
plain units above the progradational coastal plain unit
and below the retrogradational coastal plain unit of the
following rhythm (progradational coastal plain deposits
are suppressed in rhythm 3)."
As demonstrated by Davies & Gibling (2003), it fits all of the data to interpret these sedimentary facies in terms of sediment accumulating within a coastal plain experiencing fault-induced subsidence and effected by sea level rising and falling by 75 meters during glacial-interglacial cycles. Episodes of faulting would cause rapid flooding of the coastal plain resulting in either poorly drained floodplains or large brackish water bays. Later filling of either the poorly drained floodplains or open bays by peat mires, overbank flooding, and delta would later built up the coastal plain to well-drained alluvial plain. Later fault-related subsidence would start the cycle over again with the extent of subsidence moderated by contemporaneous glacial - interglacial sea level changes (Falcon-Lang 2003, 2004). The cyclic repetition of these facies, as documented by Davies & Gibling (2003), is perfectly consistent with this model. The same cyclic model, including the many fossil soils (paleosols), subaerially / pedogenically weathered sediments, and entrenched valleys, described in this and earlier papers, are impossible to explain using deposition by a single Noachian Flood.
Similarly, Falcon-Lang (2003) demonstrated that in addition to a cyclic repetition of sedimentery facies, there was a cyclic repetition of very different fossil plants unrecognized and undescribed by Dawson and Lyell. Falcon-Lang (2004) found that each of the distinctive sedimentary facies is consistently associated with a specific and distinctive assemblage of fossil plants. As individual facies repeat themselves in cycles in the section of rocks exposed in the Joggins sea cliffs, the assemblage of fossil plants repeat themselves. Falcon-Lang (2003) demonstrated cyclic changes in the environment of a coastal plain as a result of glacial-interglacial sea level fluctuations within a subsiding basin explains not only the repetition of sedimentary facies, but also the observed repetition of fossil plants. A Young earth creationist is stuck with how can the Noachian Flood can precisely sort plants according to type that they always match each other and the specific sedimentary facies, in which they are found, and repeat cyclic manner throughout the outcrop at Joggins.
For additional comments on problems with Young Earth creationist interpretations of the outcrops at Joggins, Nova Scotia, a person should read:
http://
EvC Forum: Soracilla defends the Flood? (mostly a "Joggins Polystrate Fossils" discussion) -->
EvC Forum: Soracilla defends the Flood? (mostly a "Joggins Polystrate Fossils" discussion)
http://
EvC Forum: Soracilla defends the Flood? (mostly a "Joggins Polystrate Fossils" discussion) -->
EvC Forum: Soracilla defends the Flood? (mostly a "Joggins Polystrate Fossils" discussion)
If an interested lurker wants to examine something more recent than the 140 to 160-year old antiquated research, on which Mr. Berg's "review" narrowly focuses, they can read through:
Calder, J. H., Gibling, M. R., Scott, A. C., Davies, S. J.,
and Hebert, B.L. In press. A fossil lycopsid forest succession
in the classic Joggins section of Nova Scotia: paleoecology
of a disturbance-prone Pennsylvanian wetland. In Wetlands
through time. Edited by S. Greb and W.A. DiMichele. Special
Paper in press, Geological Society of America, Boulder,
Colorado.
Davies, S. J. and Gibling, M. R., 2003, Architecture of
coastal and alluvial deposits in an extensional basin: the
Carboniferous Joggins Formation of Eastern Canada.
Sedimentology, vol. 50, no. 3, pp. 415-439.
Falcon-Lang, H. J., 2003, Response of Late Carboniferous
tropical vegetation to transgessive-regressive rhythms,
Joggins, Nova Scotia. Journal of the Geological Society
of London. vol. 160, no. 4, pp. 643-648.
Falcon-Lang, H. J., 2003, Late Carboniferous dryland
tropical vegetation, in a dryland alluvial-plain setting,
Joggins, Nova Scotia, Canada. Palaios, vol. 18, no. 3,
pp. 197-211.
Falcon-Lang, H. J. 2004a, Pennsylvanian tropical rain
forests responded to glacial-interglacial climate rhythms.
Geology vol. 32, no. 8, pp. 689-692.
Falcon-Lang, H. J., and Bashforth, A. R., 2004,
Pennsylvanian uplands were forested by giant
cordaitalean trees. Geology. vol. 32, no.5, pp. 417-420.
Falcon-Lang, H. J., and Calder, J. H., 2004,b, UNESCO
World Heritage and the Joggins cliffs of Nova Scotia.
Geology Today. vol. 20, no. 4, pp. 135-143.
Falcon-Lang, H. J., Gibling, M. R., Calder, J. H., 2004.
An early Pennsylvanian waterhole deposit and its fossil
biota in a dryland alluvial plain setting, Joggins, Nova
Scotia. Journal of the Geological Society of London. vol.
161, no.2, pp. 209-222.
Falcon-Lang, H. J., Rygel, M. C., Gibling, M. R., Calder,
J.H. & Davies, S. 2004. A dance to the rhythym of time.
Geoscientist. vol.14, no. 4, pp.5-6, 8-9.
Rygel., M. C., Gibling, R.M., and Calder, J. H., 2004,
Vegetation-induced sedimentary structures from fossil
forests in the Pennsylvanian Joggins Formation, Nova
Scotia. Sedimentology. vol. 51, no. 3, pp. 531-552
In these papers, the interested lurker will find an abundance of well-documented evidence, which utterly refutes what "Randy S." has to say in his post and what Mr. Berg stated in his so-called "review". If nothing else, the new observations, data, and interpretations presented by other older publications, not discussed by Mr. Berg and in the above and other older papers, have rendered Mr. Berg's alleged "review" completely, scientifically obsolete and worthless.
Another example of how the so-called "review" of Mr. Berg can be blind to contradictory evidence, is shown in footnote no. 9 of Berg's so-called "review". This footnote stated:
"Another place where large tree stumps are preserved without
their roots is Axel Heiberg Island in Northern Canada."
Conventional geologists would consider this a remarkably ill-informed statement because both popular and scientific publications, it is obvious anyone, except the vision impaired, can find pictures of the large tree stumps that have been found at Axel Heiberg Island. For example, in both Basinger (1987) and Lemonick (1986), there is an undeniable picture of one of the scientists studying the Axel Heiberg Island forests standing on the very tree roots that Young Earth creationists claim don't exist. These and other pictures of these roots, documented fossil soils (paleosols), and other evidence presented in scientific publications, clearly show that the subfossil trees found at Axel Heiberg Island are, beyond any shadow of a doubt are rooted in place.
The inability of Young Earth creationists to observe rooted trees that quite clearly exist at the Axel Heiberg Island and in the Joggin, Nova Scotia, sea cliffs is a remarkable example of how people are so blinded by their preconceptions that they are totally deaf, dumb, and blind to reality. It is one of many reasons why convential geologists regards much of incredibly bad science that Young Earth creationists publish as alleged "research" with disdain and much humor.
Randy S. continued:
I also, while studying this, came across compelling evidence
that this strata is quite young (probably less than 10,000
years old). This is because of the organic material that is
still present in some of the fossilized logs and unfossilized
shells."
Neither the nature the organic matter in the fossilized logs nor so-called "unfossilized" shells provides any evidence of this strata being less than 10,000 years old. The nature of the organic matter and the shells in the Joggins outcrops are completely consistent with them being about 310 millions of years old.
Randy S. continued:
"In addition, I came across very strong evidence that these
deposits were not the result of "rivers" that overflowed
their banks, but rather for marine influences."
In Mr. Berg's paper given above, this conclusion is based by very selective, out-of-context portray of the evidence and a gross ignorance of basic principles of sedimentology. If a person looks at the few recent references cited by and those ignored by Mr. Berg in his so-called "review", they will find that the unquestionable marine fossils, i.e. the ostracods and agglutinated foraminfera discussed by Tibert (1999a, 1999b) and others, are limited to specific intervals. As well-documented in literature published in the 140 to 160 years since the articles published by Dawson and Lyell, the strata exposed within the at Joggins, Nova Scotia, accumulated within a coastal plain lying within a tectonically active basin subject to periodic fault-subsidence. The degree of subsidence was moderated by glacial - interglacial sea level changes on the order of 75 meters. As a result, tectonic subsidence of the basin during interglacial high stands of sea level would have periodically inundated, the Joggins area, as in many coastal plains, with marine waters. Once sea level had stabilized, thin beds of marine sediments would have accumulated until the shallow nearshore zone was filled in by deltas and built up as alluvial plains by the rivers supplying the deltas. Within the Mississippi Delta and Louisiana coastal plain and continental shelf, a person finds similar cyclic interplayering of marine, deltaic, and river deposits. The interlayering of these deposits, as in the Joggins sea cliffs, simply reflects the interplay between regional subsidence and glacial-interglacial sea level resulting in the back and forth movement of the shoreline over time. The presence of either marine of brackish-water fossil within the Joggin strata requires neither a global flood as an explanation nor is any evidence of it.
As far as tidal deposits and brackish water sediments and shells, a person can find such sediments interlayered with the fluvial and deltaic deposits beneath many a modern coastal plain just as they are found within the Joggins outcrops. Brackish and tidal water deposits often fill bays that extend long distances into coastal plains comprised of alluvial deposits. In the case of bays formed by the flooding of a valley created by the entrenchment of a river, these sediments would directly overlie fluvial deposits. If sea level were remain stable for a long enough period of time, alluvial deposits would eventually bury these tidal or brackish water sediments creating interlayered deposits similar to those found in the Joggins outcrops. Furthermore, brackish water and tidal strata also are associated with deltas. If "Randy S." was to go to the Mississippi River Delta, he would find that large parts of its delta plain, the interdistribuary areas, consist of brackish water marsh and bays. In this and many other deltas, brackish water sediments and shells are a typical part of the sediments, which accumulate in association with their peats. Similarly, there are many tide-dominated deltas in the world, in these deltas tidal sediments and fossils are an integral part of their deltaic sediments. Therefore, there is no need to invoke a Global Flood to explain the presence of tidal deposits and organisms within deposits of a deltaic /coastal plain, as found at Joggins, as they are often a typical part of them. This is all basic, beginning geologic knowledge, of which anyone, who is unaware of this, is woefully ignorant in their understanding of geology.
As pointed out by another geologist, who is working on an article about the Joggins polystrate fossils, the fossils found within deposits, interpreted to have been deposited within the floodplain of rivers, are all terrestrial in nature. They completely lack any fossil of either marine or brackish water origin as documented by Falcon-Lan et al. (2004) and Hebert et al. (2004). The brackish water fossils are restricted to specific intervals that have the physical characteristics of deltaic and bay sediments and the marine fossils are restricted to thin intervals, i.e. limestones, which consist of sediments having the physical characteristics of sediments deposited in nearshore environments. In the context of the physical characteristics of the sediments enclosing and the depositional cycles of which they are part of, there is nothing anomalous about the distribution of these fossils. The so-called "strong evidence" noted in Mr. Berg's "The "Fossil Forests" of Nova Scotia: A Review of the Literature" doesn't exist. Thus, the occurrence of marine beds, brackish water fossil, and tidal deposits interbedded with fluvial and deltaic sediments proved nothing in terms of a global flood. The so-called "strong evidence" presented in the so-call "review" by Berg is readily explained by noncatastrophic sea-level change resulting from glacial-interglacial cycles and tectonic subsidence. How this happened is discussed in detail by Falcon-Lang (2003) and different papers found in Pashin and Gastaldo (2004).
References Cited:
Anderson, J. B., And Fillon, R. F., 2004, Late Quaternary
and Stratigraphy of the Gulf of Mexico Margin. SEPM special
Publication no. 79, Society for Sedimentary Geology, Tulsa,
Oklahoma.
Bassinger, J. F., 1987, Our 'Tropical' Arctic. Canadian
Geographic. vol. 106, no. 6, pp. 28-37.
Brian L. Hebert and John H. Calder, 2004, On the discovery
of a unique terrestrial faunal assemblage in the classic
Pennsylvanian section at Joggins, Nova Scotia. Canadian
Journal of Earth Science. vol. 41, pp. 247-254
Davies, S. J. and Gibling, M. R., 2003, Architecture of
coastal and alluvial deposits in an extensional basin: the
Carboniferous Joggins Formation of Eastern Canada.
Sedimentology, vol. 50, no. 3, pp. 415-439.
Falcon-Lang, H. J., 2003, Late Carboniferous dryland
tropical vegetation, in a dryland alluvial-plain setting,
Joggins, Nova Scotia, Canada. Palaios, vol. 18, no. 3,
pp. 197-211.
Falcon-Lang, H. J., Gibling, M. R., Calder, J. H., 2004.
An early Pennsylvanian waterhole deposit and its fossil
biota in a dryland alluvial plain setting, Joggins, Nova
Scotia. Journal of the Geological Society of London. vol.
161, no.2, pp. 209-222.
Lemonick, M. D., 1986, Unearthing a Frozen Forest: Arctic
tree stumps provide a glimpse of the distant past. Time.
vol. 128, no. 12, p. 64.
Pashin, J. C., and Gastaldo, R. A., 2004, Sequence
Stratigraphy, Paleoclimate, and Tectonics of Coal-Bearing
Strata. AAPG Studies in Geology no.51, American Association
of Petroleum Geology. Tulsa, Oklahoma.
Tibert, Neil E., 1999a, Ostracodes and agglutinated
Foraminifera as indicators of paleoenvironmental
change in an Early Carboniferous brackish bay, Atlantic
Canada. Palaios. vol. 14, no. 3, pp. 246-260
Tibert, Neil E., 1999b, Peat accumulation on a drowned
coastal braidplain; the Mullins Coal (Upper Carboniferous),
Sydney Basin, Nova Scotia. Sedimentary Geology. vol. 128,
no. 1-2, pp. 23-38.
I want to thank another geologist and "unindicted coconspirator" for letting me "steal some of his thunder" and use ideas and references that he might use in future popular papers on the Joggins polystarte fossils and the subfossil trees of Axel Heiberg Island.
Best Regards.
Bill
Houston, Texas
This message has been edited by Bill Birkeland, 10-24-2004 11:13 PM
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