Meaning of Daniel 8:13-14 ?

Eddy Pengelly wrote:

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Daniel was given the interpretation of his vision (8:13-14) in Daniel 8:15-26

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The two verses you quote are speaking of two different time periods:
8:15-26 is about Greece, then the Roman Empire and its later Holy Church and office of Pope;
8:13-14 is about the End Times.

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Eddy are you kidding? (FZ)While the person who made the original statement was a little inaccurate (it should read, "Daniel was given the interpretation of his vision (8:1-14) in Daniel 8:15-26"), the basic concept is correct.Daniel naturally has nothing to do with Rome or the Holy Roman Empire or even the Pope. Between Daniel chapters 7 and 12, there are four visions which deal substantially with the same set of events in varying detail, but to understand this one needs to know the history hidden in the visions.[1]The first people to conquer Judah in Daniel's account are the Babylonians (the first beast in Dan 7:4) and when the Assyrians were conquered by the Medes all the lands that the Babylonians held in the west fell briefly to the Medes as well (the second beast, 7:5). The Medes in turn were conquered by the Persians (the third beast, Dan 7:6) who held Judah until Alexander the conqueror took the whole of the fertile crescent after whom the Seleucids (the fourth beast, 7:7ff) held Syria and the Ptolemies held Egypt. The Seleucids came to Judea with elephants to quell the troublesome Jews: these elephants are the fourth beast, which was "exceedingly strong" with iron teeth (tusks) and trampled things to pieces. The various horns of the fourth beast were the Seleucid kings. The king who first sent the elephants was Antiochus IV, who came to power after the assassination of his brother Seleucus IV by Heliodorus who set up a young puppet king, so we have three horns (7:8) Seleucus IV, Heliodorus and the puppet king, who were plucked out to make way for the little horn, Antiochus IV.Antiochus IV was responsible for stopping the Jewish cultic practices in the temple, forcing them to worship him on his birth date once a month using the Greek calendar -- this is the accusation against Antiochus in 7:25, [he] shall attempt to change the sacred seasons and the Law. One could go into more detail about this vision and its villain, but there are three more visions to look at. Suffice it to say that the end is also predicted in 7:25, as a time, two times and a half a time, three and a half times, or years = 1274 days.[2]The second vision, in chapter 8, goes back to an animal image of a large ram with two horns, one being the Medes and the other the Persians, for they were related peoples. The Median horn is broken and the Persian horn had control. The male goat which appeared in the west, is once again Alexander who put an end to the Persian empire, but at the height of its power, the great horn was broken, and in its place there came up four prominent horns (8:8). On Alexander's death there was a struggle for his kingdom and it was split into four. Once again a little horn arises (8:9), and yes once again we have Antiochus IV coming onto the scene. Antiochus stops sacrifices in the temple and sets up a statue (the transgression of desolation)(8:13). And again we are left with a prediction of the end, this time 2300 mornings and evenings or 1150 days (a little shorter than the previous one).[3]The interpretation of the seventy weeks is yet another look at the history of the times up to Antiochus IV's desecration of the temple, this time from a Jewish perspective. From the exile seven weeks of years passed until the high priest Jeshua, the "anointed prince" (all high priests were anointed and after the exile they were the princes in charge of the Jerusalem community) presided over the rebuilding of Jerusalem (9:25). A further sixty-two weeks of years (or thereabouts) passed until the time of Antiochus IV who removed Onias III from the high priesthood in 175 BCE. Onias was murdered around 171 BCE (9:26) at the instigation of the Seleucid appointed high priest Menelaus (with whom Antiochus made a "strong covenant") and we are in the last week of years. About three and a half years after Onias's death Antiochus sent his forces to Jerusalem and polluted the temple, terminating sacrifices and settling up a statue of Zeus (almost certainly in Antiochus's likeness). The end decreed, after the final three and a half years, will be poured out on the desolator.[4]Chapter 11's approach is to look at the struggle between the Seleucids (the kings of the north) and the Ptolemies (the kings of the south), starting with the arrival of Alexander ("the warrior king" 11:3). One could follow the various kings of the north and south battling if one reads Polybius's history, but let's skip to 11:20 which tells the tale of Heliodorus's visit to the Jerusalem temple (told in full in the apocryphal book, 2 Macc 3). Seleucus IV was the king of the north who sent him. This king was soon followed by Antiochus IV, though Antiochus was not destined to be king, for he was a younger brother, but when Heliodorus killed Seleucus, his brother came and took the throne. So we have our "vile person to whom royal majesty had not been given, but he shall come peacefully and obtain the kingdom by flattery". This is followed by more history that can be followed in Polybius, including the discussion between the king of the north, Antiochus, and the king of the south, Ptolemy, sitting at the one table (11:27) in Egypt.What is more important though is, Antiochus took heed of Menelaus and his supporters ("those who forsake the covenant") and set up Menelaus as high priest in Jerusalem. Then later, "Forces sent by him shall occupy and profane the temple and fortress. They shall abolish the tamid and they shall set up the abomination that makes desolate" (11:31). And I heard him swear by the one who lives forever that it would be for a time, two times and a half a time, and that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end... (12:7). From the time of the death of Onias III (the anointed one cut off in 9:26 and the prince of the covenant (with God) in 11:22) until the temple was purified and sacrifice was able to start again in the temple there were seven years. Halfway, that is three and a half years (approximately) after Onias's death Antiochus IV ended sacrifies, then approximately three and a half years later the temple was rededicated. Oh, and there were two other attempts at the prediction, 12:12 says 1290 days (just over three and a half years) and 12:13 says 1335 days (a month and a half more), but the basic idea they had was correct: seven years from the removal of the anointed one till the restarting of sacrifices.So, there you have four different views of the one history.Have fun.spinThis message has been edited by spin, 11-27-2004 01:42 AM

oh, this should be interesting. i think i'll take a back seat for a while. i do highly suggest you go find his earlier posts, though.

Thanks for the historical information that you provided. It is clearer and more easy to understand than the accounts in various study Bibles that I have sourced, and mostly confirms the historical information for Daniel's time period.Then comes the End Time context (and time period).Look up the word "anachronism".The history of the Roman Empire follows on from the Median and Greek time periods.The End Time sequence of historical events are the fifth historical view, and in context relate to the Roman Empire.

(extract used with permission)
Daniel asks an angel for an explanation about the "fourth beast" (7:19).7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
"the fourth kingdom upon earth" = the fourth kingdom that chronologically follows Greece = the Roman Empire.7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
"And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise" = the ten Roman Emperors: Superbus, Augustus, Nero, Vespasian, Trajan, Hadrian, Aurelius, Caracalla, Diocletian, and Constantine.
"he shall subdue three kings" = he shall subdue the three previous Roman kingdoms; Monarchy, Republic, and Empire.
"another shall rise after them" = another kingdom shall arise after these three kingdoms - the Holy Roman Church.Verse 7:23 started to list the characteristics of this fourth kingdom - "shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces".
7:25 continues its characteristics - "And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time".These verses are telling us that the religious fourth Beast is a fourth kingdom different to the previous three of the Roman Empire which devours the whole earth, treads it down, and breaks it in pieces. Four characteristics and one time period are clearly stated.
It shall
a) be given into his hand until a time, and times, and the dividing of time;
b) speak words against the most High;
c) change times; and
d) change laws.a). In Genesis 1:14 'days' as a period of time can refer to 'years', and in Strong’s Concordance Greek word #2250 days gives ‘day, age, time, years’, confirming this biblical exchanging of time values.
An ancient year consisted of 360 days, but as 'days' can refer to 'years', then the value of "Times" from Daniel 7:25 can equal 360 years.
So the given formula of "Time, and Times, and the dividing of Time = Total years" represents the mathematical equation T + Tx2 + T/2 = Total years.
Solving this drives 360 + 720 +180 = 1260 years.Thus a fourth kingdom different to the previous three kingdoms lasts for 1,260 years.The dominant European country, the Roman Empire, consisted of three separate periods. Was there a fourth Roman kingdom different to the previous three, and did it last 1,260 years ?Yes. The fourth empire was a religiously run dominion, and was ruled by the title of Pope rather than Emperor.
(A subtle change from a Military Empire to a Religious State.)
After the Western Empire was dissolved in 476 AD, Rome itself fell in 546.
King Charlemagne gave his new kingdom the name Roman Empire in 800.
Otto the Great of Saxony also gave his kingdom the name Roman Empire in 962.
This lasted until 1806 and was renamed the Holy Roman Empire in the 12th century.Thus from the fall of Rome in 546 (and after the third Roman Empire) until the end of the Holy Roman Empire in 1806 was 1,260 years. (1806 - 546 = 1260)The Holy Roman Christian Church is the biblically described fourth beast-kingdom. This Church introduced and insisted that its followers worship the biblically named woman Mary and perpetuated the idea that the OT Messiah was 'the Christ Jesus'.From an Old Testament Hebrew perspective, historically, did this Church:
b) speak words against the most High; c) change times; and d) change laws ?Yes, to all three.b). Speak words against Jehovah - the Hebrew God.
A Son and a Mother of God have been added to Jehovah's original religion of only one God.
Pope Gregory I initiated the teaching of Purgatory for those who die as Roman Catholics.These teachings are not from the words of the original Hebrew god YHWH, nor are they found in the Old Testament.c). Change times
Pope Gregory XIII introduced the Gregorian Calendar.
Thursday Oct 4 1582 was followed by Friday Oct 15 1582Time itself was literally changed by 11 days !d). Change laws
The Roman Emperors and subsequent Popes introduced their own religious Doctrines and Laws that derived a different type of Christianity from that spoken of by the original Nazarene movement of the first Century AD. They even wrote their own version of the Bible - the Latin Vulgate.
Under Pope Gregory 1 the position of Pope became the supreme authority of the western Church instead of the Hebrew God (or even Jesus Christ).Concluding in 1563, the Council of Trent passed numerous disciplinary decrees as well as doctrinal decisions such as the doctrine of Justification; the extent of the Canon of the Scriptures and the authenticity of the Vulgate; the theology of the Sacraments, especially those of the Eucharist and Marriage; Purgatory; the Veneration of the Saints; and Indulgences.
The rise of a world Religion being Daniel’s fourth Beast is therefore the Holy Roman Catholic Church, as it historically confirmed in 1563 what the angelic messenger describes."shall devour the whole earth" = the spread of the Catholic religion around the world.
"shall tread it down" = the forced religious values of this Church on the world's various populations via such avenues as the inquisition.
"and break it in pieces" = the many religious wars fought by the Catholic Church and the deliberate destruction of cultures such as the Inca of South America.7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
This means that the final judgement will provide the truth about Christianity - and the role of the Church in the world will come to an end.

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Thanks for the historical information that you provided. It is clearer and more easy to understand than the accounts in various study Bibles that I have sourced, and mostly confirms the historical information for Daniel's time period.

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Then comes the End Time context (and time period).

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If you noticed, I did explain what the three and a half years prediction indicated and that it was fulfilled.

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Look up the word "anachronism".

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Why? I know what it means. It might be useful if you actually stated your thought rather than ask me to understand what you have in your mind.

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The history of the Roman Empire follows on from the Median and Greek time periods.

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If you understood my post you'd see that I don't find any indication of Rome at all. My explanation of the fourth beast as the Seleucid elephant contexts the beast directly with the Macedonian kingdom in Syria.

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The End Time sequence of historical events are the fifth historical view, and in context relate to the Roman Empire.

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If you read the text literally, and I do, the three and a half years points directly to the restoration of the temple of Jerusalem which occurred three and a half years after it was polluted by Antiochus IV. The end came just as the prdiction indicated.spin

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7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
"the fourth kingdom upon earth" = the fourth kingdom that chronologically follows Greece = the Roman Empire.

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For some reason, I guess my exact explanation of the fourth beast literally didn't appeal to you so you ignored it. It is important to understand that that beast was an elephant, for the Romans basically didn't use elephants, and never in the east. I gave a clear indication of what the four beasts relate to and you haven't dealt with that. I don't see how you can conclude without evidence that the fourth beast, despite being an elephant, was Rome.

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7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
"And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise" = the ten Roman Emperors: Superbus, Augustus, Nero, Vespasian, Trajan, Hadrian, Aurelius, Caracalla, Diocletian, and Constantine.
"he shall subdue three kings" = he shall subdue the three previous Roman kingdoms; Monarchy, Republic, and Empire.
"another shall rise after them" = another kingdom shall arise after these three kingdoms - the Holy Roman Church.

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Why those emperors? This is more like a lottery than an argument. Tarquinius Superbus was not an emperor, but a king and Roman history is clear on the matter. What happened to Tiberius, Caligula and Claudius?? Or Domitian, Antonius Pius, or Aurelian?Scratch this attempt it's totally arbitrary.

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Verse 7:23 started to list the characteristics of this fourth kingdom - "shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces".

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Yup. While the others were swift and aggressive, the Seleucid elephant was simply too powerful and destroyed everything in its path.

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7:25 continues its characteristics - "And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time".

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Antiochus IV had other names "Theos Epiphanes", basically God incarnate (the epiphany or revelation of God). This name is the indication of the affront he caused against the Jews as he was a challenge to God, especially when he put a statue of Zeus in the temple in his likeness.

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These verses are telling us that the religious fourth Beast is a fourth kingdom different to the previous three of the Roman Empire which devours the whole earth, treads it down, and breaks it in pieces. Four characteristics and one time period are clearly stated.
It shall
a) be given into his hand until a time, and times, and the dividing of time;
b) speak words against the most High;
c) change times; and
d) change laws.

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1. I have already dealt with 3 1/2 years as also indicated by the half a week of years in Dan 9:27.
2. Antiochus, by calling himself Theos Epiphanes, was speaking words against the most high
3. Already dealt with, ie the enforcement of the Greek calendar in the monthly celebration of Antiochus's birthday
4. Already dealt with, in the stopping of sacrifices -- Jewish laws were about cultic practice.

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a). In Genesis 1:14 'days' as a period of time can refer to 'years', and in Strong’s Concordance Greek word #2250 days gives ‘day, age, time, years’, confirming this biblical exchanging of time values.

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This is totally unfounded. Please understand that you cannot do language work without knowing the language. Genesis 1 repeatedly indicates that it is dealing with ordinary days, made up of mornings and evenings. If you miss that you will not understand the institution of the Shabbat. It would make no sense if the seventh day, the day of rest was not preceded by six ordinary days. If you stretch the six days out to whatever you like, then what value is the seventh?? Please think about that text and what it actually means, not what you want to make out of it.Please, if you want to do work on the Hebrew language, you need to use a Hebrew lexicon. The commonly available one is Brown, Driver and Briggs (Publisher: Hendrickson). Strongs is just not good enough.

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An ancient year consisted of 360 days,

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This is only the Persian calendar. It is not the Greek nor the Hebrew calendar of the time.

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but as 'days' can refer to 'years',

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I have refuted this as baseless and not reflective of the original text.

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then the value of "Times" from Daniel 7:25 can equal 360 years.

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So, while the 3 1/2 years in Dan 9:27 is clearly stated, you can see no necessity to relate it to the 3 1/2 times in Dan 7:25?? You have to resort to trickery to turn days to years and this:

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So the given formula of "Time, and Times, and the dividing of Time = Total years" represents the mathematical equation T + Tx2 + T/2 = Total years.
Solving this drives 360 + 720 +180 = 1260 years.

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Where did the figure 360 suddenly materialize from? Clearly not from the text.The parallel to 7:25 is 12:7 in that it also talks of a time, two times and a half a time. While 7:25 is in Aramaic and less clear, the Hebrew of 12:7 is MW`D, moed, "meeting" often used for a year festival (see for example Lev 23:2 & 4). Your idea of years for days from many aspects is not supported by the text.As you are plainly misguided about the dating you propose, I don't think there is any point in going through the rest of your post which assumes that dating.I have already provided a functional literal interpretation of the text. Why not deal with that?spin

hahahahahahahahahaha ok sorry.(look up the word "irony.")

"day" as in genesis 1:14 יום"year" as also in genesis 1:14 שנהThis message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 11-30-2004 01:30 AM

Spin askedSorrymy indiscretion. Yesin your opinion, and in reference to an anachronism to the time frame of the "early times" - all of which I acknowledged and agreed. as above. Reading the text literally provides the 'early' stated historical anachronism.
The End Time context (which is specifically stated later) changes the 'literal' interpretation to the context of what the angel was actually telling and showing Daniel of the 'near future' and how this affects the End Times. I have done a word search of Daniel - and there is no mention of an elephant.Sorry, it is just your opinion. Tusks are not made of iron. A "clear indication" is not fact. Your guess is not evidence either !! In Daniel (Ezekiel, and John of Revelations) an angel shows and tells Daniel about the future kingdoms that will form and what will happen to them in the End Times. (ie. the two anachronisms as I call them.) When Daniel says "what the?" the angel again explains to him what he was just shown and told.
The angel physically showed Daniel 'future history' from a 'modern history book' that he took to the time period of circa 600BC.
I have seen a copy of that 'history book' - and what has previously been believed to be just "symbolic" imagery, is actual descriptions from that 'history book'.The "four beasts in the middle, being a lion, a man, like an eagle, and an ox " refer to the four icons in the middle of the page that are in the shape of the following animals: 1) a lion, 2) a man 3) something like eagle wings 4) a calf (Ox).
The lion = the Etruscan civilization. The man = Carthage. Like eagles wings = the Greek civilization. The Calf = the Roman Empire. The fourth beast on the page (and by chronology) represents the Roman Empire. The ten stated emperors are listed in the Roman Empire's history section.
Alexander the Great is listed in the Personages section.The sequence of twenty animals/things of Daniel 7:2-8 are descriptions of pictures from within in the Etruscan presentation (the lion icon). Because once the Roman priests (then Popes) got the monopoly on translating the ancient Hebrew and Greek texts, what they wanted us to believe became the translation and interpretations that we now believe. Then the English translation did a similar thing. Most biblical texts, and especially their interpretations, are not what was originally intended.As someone else inferred earlier on, it is believed by some that Strong's Concordance (the original, and not the modern versions) is a decoding key that returns the 'modern translations' back to the original intended meanings.
The discussing of this claim was actually the purpose of this thread, but we seem to have gone off track - and moved on to what history the angel showed and told Daniel. The reply to my original post by Kim confirmed the meanings that my version of the Concordance dictionary provided.

What's anachronistic about the information? That Daniel is set in the Babylonian then Persian courts? It is supposed to be a vision of the future.You don't seem to ask what the writer is talking about when he refers to the end. Hebrew had no word for the elephant at the time. The Jews' first sight of them was through the Seleucids. That's why, unlike the others, the fourth beast is not named. Please read the other descriptions... when did leopards have wings? or a lion? Thrill me, Eddy: what sort of beast do you think it is based on the evidence in the text?? The logic of the passage is that these beasts had the appearance of specific animals, one like a lion, one like a bear, etc, each representing a particular kingdom. The elephant for the Seleucids is obvious. How do you make the fourth beast out to be anything relevant in other circumstances?On the clear indication that the fourth beast represented the Seleucids, not Rome: I am not "guessing" that the fourth beast is an elephant and thus is a symbol of the Seleucids. I gave evidence and a little more in this post. Do me a favour and supply some evidence for either why the fourth beast is Rome or at least why I'm wrong.I asked why the disjointed hotch-potch list of emperors: This in no sense explains how you chose the ten specific emperors out of several dozen. It seems more like bingo than a coherent list. I was asking for evidence, Eddy, not just another bald statement. As I said to you your list is incoherent. I also pointed out that Tarquinius Superbus was not an emperor at all. He was a king of pre-Republican Rome. Your list is as though you picked them out at chronologically random intervals. You don't seem too interested in what Daniel actually indicates.Here are the ten kings in chronological order from Alexander to the three horns that Antiochus IV surplanted:

1. Alexander
2. Seleucus I
3. Antiochus I
4. Antiochus II
5. Seleucus II
6. Seleucus III
7. Antiochus III
8. *Seleucus IV
9. *Antiochus (puppet of..)
10. *Heliodorus

with Antiochus IV as the little horn.Do you have a problem with the direct application of this historical information, when there are numerous indications that we are dealing with events during the reign of Antiochus IV? Eddy, are you kidding?It would have been nice for you to deal with what I said, rather than having you ignore it a second time like you have.Hiding behind the claim that Latin translations were obfuscations of the original text seems to be a strange approach when we are dealing with a translation from the original Hebrew, not the Latin. If there were such an obfuscation, how would you be able to know, when you have none of the necessary linguistic skills to deal with the original texts? This is a fatal epistemological problem for your stated position. Strong's is a crutch for those who don't know anything about Hebrew. And your further statement underlines the problem: If you noticed my post #30 in this thread, I did attempt to clarify some of the problems you were having and the errors you were inadvertently making.So, I can relate the elephant to the Seleucids, but how exactly do you relate the fourth beast to Rome? What sort of animal is it and how is it relevant to Rome? And when Daniel talks about ten kings arising out of the fourth kingdom (7:24), did he really mean forty or fifty, out of which you can choose ten at random?I don't think you are doing exegesis, ie taking meaning out of the text, but eisegesis, ie reading into the text (what you want). I get the idea that you don't like the catholic church, but that doesn't affect the meaning of Daniel 7-12.