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Author Topic:   The "Gospel" Of John
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 46 of 215 (166117)
12-08-2004 3:15 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by macaroniandcheese
12-08-2004 2:59 AM


using new testament verses to prove to a jew that jesus is the messiah is about as useful as using verses in the mormon text to prove to you that joseph smith actually had golden tablets
precisely.
and now for a quote from lds scripture:
quote:
Moroni 10:3-5
Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts. And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
this is the standard mormon test of faith, the keystone to the religion. they believe because of that gut feeling, god telling them what's right. now i agree with alot of mormon doctrines, and i mean alot. the church of latter day saints is simply the best church i have ever been to. but i didn't have the heard to tell the missionaries that their book didn't pass that simple test with me.
This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 12-08-2004 03:16 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-08-2004 2:59 AM macaroniandcheese has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 47 of 215 (166118)
12-08-2004 3:17 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by macaroniandcheese
12-08-2004 3:14 AM


i thought jesus was god's word... that's what john says...
john seems the support the name of god found in the targums, Memra, which is aramaic for "to speak" (or "the word" if you will).

This message is a reply to:
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dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 215 (166255)
12-08-2004 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by arachnophilia
12-08-2004 2:04 AM


Re: The one whom Jesus loved....
Arachnophilia writes:
why does gen 6:9 repeat 5:32? why does 6 contain a new introduction and reference point if it's a story continued from gen 5 and 4?
Genesis 5:32 says:
32 And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
Genesis 6:9 says:
9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
The new introduction and reference point in Genesis 6:9 is to shift the focus (to Noah in this case).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by arachnophilia, posted 12-08-2004 2:04 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by arachnophilia, posted 12-08-2004 4:48 PM dpardo has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 49 of 215 (166304)
12-08-2004 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by dpardo
12-08-2004 2:00 PM


Re: The one whom Jesus loved....
err, sorry, wrong verse. genesis 6:10.
quote:
Genesis 5:32
When Noah had lived 500 years, Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth
quote:
Genesis 6:10
Noah begat three sons: Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
here's another:
quote:
Genesis 6:5
The LORD saw how great was man's wickedness on earth, and how every plan devised by his mind was nothing but evil all the time
quote:
Genesis 6:11,12
The earth became corrupt before God; the earth was filled lawlessness. When God saw God saw how corrupt the earth was, for all flesh had corrupted its ways on earth....
notice one calls god by name, and the other calls god "god?"
the stories are slightly different foci, but they are very separate stories.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by dpardo, posted 12-08-2004 2:00 PM dpardo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Nighttrain, posted 12-08-2004 6:24 PM arachnophilia has replied
 Message 51 by dpardo, posted 12-08-2004 7:31 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 50 of 215 (166335)
12-08-2004 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by arachnophilia
12-08-2004 4:48 PM


Re: The one whom Jesus loved....
Careful, Arach, questioning dogma/doctrine and detecting the senselessness of THE bible, will put you on the slippery slope to Atheism. Just takes that final leap to cross over.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by arachnophilia, posted 12-08-2004 4:48 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
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dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 215 (166346)
12-08-2004 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by arachnophilia
12-08-2004 4:48 PM


Re: The one whom Jesus loved....
Arachnophilia writes:
notice one calls god by name, and the other calls god "god?"
Let's examine the following excerpt from Dr. Lee Belford's Introduction to Judaism:
It has been suggested that justice without mercy is cruelty. God is not cruel. He is patient and longsuffering. He speaks words of warning. When nothing else will do, he punishes his people, not for revenge, but to lead them to repentance and a change of life.
Too often we have forgotten that the King of the universe is also the Father of men in the Old Testament.
Notice how in the second paragraph there is a shift from the term "God" to "King".
Am I on to something here?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by arachnophilia, posted 12-08-2004 4:48 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
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Swift
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 215 (166379)
12-08-2004 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by arachnophilia
12-08-2004 2:52 AM


1. why did jesus need to prove it?
If a man one day came out and said I am God then did nothing to prove it would you belive him. See John 14:28-29
2. why did jesus need to die?
This was song of praise written by David that describes an ordeal that the people of Isreal were having with God. The people where offering the sacrifice of the lamb or whatever animal they were using but not themselves and would be quick to sin agin.
3. why is jesus resurrection significant in conquering death?
He conquers spiritual death more than he does physical death. Even thogh we see him in gethsemene fearing and asking God the Father to take his death away from him he feared more than physical death but seperation from God the Father. Since he bore seperation for us we can be saved from the seperation from God in Hell.
he's very separate and small compared to god.
So then you belive that he was not God. So then what will beliveing on him get you if he was not God. It wolud get you nowhere cause he would be sinfull like everyone else and dying for use would have done nothing to save us cause he was not God who is sinless.Rom. 3:23 "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God."
threats of hellfire
Hell is our price for sining aginst God. I deserve Hell because i have sinned but God gave me his son and payed the price for everyone.
I see nothing in theses to condeme it of propaganda. It tells what the Jews did to get rid of Jesus. And Jesus gave his life no one took it from him cause he gave it himself.
I was not calling you a hypocryte i sad it SOUNDED like you belived them. And as i saw in another thread someone else thoght so to.
They show this to show that the prophcies are true since one of the propecies said he would be related to david.
it is composed of many different sources, all written down by fallible men
God choose the men who would write the bible and led there hand to write what was true or else he would not have picked them to write it. Please point out the problems you think it has. I would like to see them.
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
He didnt lie they did die, but not so much phsycly. Instead they died spirtually having sinned and become seperated from God cause of there sin. God also made the 10 comandments wich stats "thou shalt not lie" so why would he break his own law.
churches are the best tax-exempt sources of income
Yes today we do but back then they got to be best freinds with Neros pets in the coloseum. In a way if you look at it though they where kind of tax-exempt, permanently. Paul became dog poor after a wihle by the way. Its not cheap to do all that traveling so he had nothing to gain. They were killed cause Nero was siko and liked to torment people.
This message has been edited by Swift, 12-09-2004 12:55 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by arachnophilia, posted 12-08-2004 2:52 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by arachnophilia, posted 12-09-2004 1:43 AM Swift has replied

  
Swift
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 215 (166383)
12-08-2004 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by macaroniandcheese
12-08-2004 2:59 AM


oh and since when does the financial well-being of the members of a religion have any bearing on the verity of that religion?
It dosent but I didnt say that. You did. I stated that the aposles had nothing to gain from lying unlike Mohammed who after being proclaimed the prophet of allah Became very rich and had grand army.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-08-2004 2:59 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-09-2004 4:26 PM Swift has replied

  
Swift
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 215 (166384)
12-08-2004 11:47 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by macaroniandcheese
12-08-2004 3:14 AM


i thought jesus was god's word
Jews before Christ came were taught that the word of God was the same as God cause it came from God. Hence Jesus is the word.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-08-2004 3:14 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-09-2004 4:26 PM Swift has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 55 of 215 (166392)
12-09-2004 12:52 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Nighttrain
12-08-2004 6:24 PM


Re: The one whom Jesus loved....
Careful, Arach, questioning dogma/doctrine and detecting the senselessness of THE bible, will put you on the slippery slope to Atheism. Just takes that final leap to cross over.
my belief really has very little to do with the bible. i believe the bible to be a collection of writings of men regarding religion and god, not the word of god regarding men. so i have very little problems with seeing the bible as flawed -- it doesn't say anything about god.
but, you raise an interesting question: if the bible cannot withstand questioning and invesigation, why should anyone believe it?

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Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Phat, posted 12-10-2004 7:51 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
Swift
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 215 (166395)
12-09-2004 12:59 AM


made mistakes in message 52 so i edited it. if you started reply read back over it.

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 57 of 215 (166405)
12-09-2004 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Swift
12-08-2004 11:35 PM


you've mostly missed the point here, swift. these are not questions you will be able to answer for me, nor are they based on single verses you can apologize for and address to make my concerns go away. they are based on years of belief and study. part of that belief i now question. i guarantee you i've read whatever verse you quote at me.
If a man one day came out and said I am God then did nothing to prove it would you belive him. See John 14:28-29
and referencing john certainly will not help at all. the point of this thread is to question the gospel of john.
in answer to your question, no, i would not believe him. probably not even if he DID "prove" it. jesus did not claim to be god in the other gospels; nor is he claiming any such thing in that verse either. ehe even says "the father is greater than i" which makes him, according to his own words, LESS THAN GOD.
This was song of praise written by David that describes an ordeal that the people of Isreal were having with God. The people where offering the sacrifice of the lamb or whatever animal they were using but not themselves and would be quick to sin agin.
like the passage says, god would rather we do his will, and follow his law than make sacrifices.
please go back to leviticus or exodus and read the requirements for sin offerings. a sin offering is an animal from your flock (a bull, usually). you have to own the animal. you (or the priest, depending) slit it's throat, drain its blood, put it on the altar with your finger, and then drain the rest at the base of the altar. then you take the coating of the intestines, the gall bladder, and the kidneys, and burn them on the altar. then you take bull and it's excriment, and burn it outside the city.
so, tell me:
do you own a jesus?
is jesus a bull?
did jesus have his throat slit?
was jesus's blood drained, and spread on the altar in jerusalem?
was jesus gutted, and his internal organs burned on the alter in jerusalem?
was jesus burned in his own dung outside the city walls of jerusalem?
how then is jesus a sin offering?
He conquers spiritual death more than he does physical death.
that's totally meaningless. what is spiritual death? is that same death that adam died when he ate from the tree? it's answer made up very recently to explain certain problems, such as god's lie.
jesus is quoted in thomas as saying "Whoever discovers the interpretation of these sayings will not taste death." does that sound like he's talking about spiritual death to you? or real physical death?
Even thogh we see him in gethsemene fearing and asking God the Father to take his death away from him he feared more than physical death but seperation from God the Father. Since he bore seperation for us we can be saved from the seperation from God in Hell.
i don't believe in hell. or the devil.
reading the passages about gethsemane it's interesting to notice that jesus is the only doing any talking. it's a one sided coversation.
So then you belive that he was not God. So then what will beliveing on him get you if he was not God. It wolud get you nowhere cause he would be sinfull like everyone else and dying for use would have done nothing to save us cause he was not God who is sinless.Rom. 3:23 "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God."
god doesn't expect us to be god. it's completely unreasonable to think that. it makes god out to be stupid and foolhardy.
why does salvation rest on jesus being god, rather than the son of god, like the bible says? that makes no sense either.
if all have fallen short of god, what about the archangel michael. has he sinned? is he capable of sin? about the the sons of god (gen 6, job 1, etc). are they capable of sin?
i never said that i thought jesus wasn't anything special, just that i don't think he is god. the text supports my claim. it's woefully dualistic to think there is only god and man, and nothing inbetween, especially when jesus explicitly says that he is less than god, in your verse above.
Hell is our price for sining aginst God. I deserve Hell because i have sinned but God gave me his son and payed the price for everyone.
i don't believe in hell. the place that is called hell in most christian bibles is hebrew "sheol" or "grave." while not exactly a literal grave in every instance, the concept is closer to the greek hades, where people are dim shadows of their former existance.
jacob, israel himself, said that he's going to hell. that's just ludicrous. but i guess according to your belief he would be.
why make god out to be such an abominable tyrant, that he would sentance his children to eternal torture?
And Jesus gave his life no one took it from him cause he meant to die.
i would argue that crucifixion was a form of execution, which would equate to the governmental power taking his life.
I was not calling you a hypocryte i sad it SOUNDED like you belived them. And as i saw in another thread someone else thoght so to.
it's called a devil's advocate argument. i know i didn't invent it. it's not my fault that no one is swift enough to pick up on it.
They show this to show that the prophcies are true since one of the propecies said he would be related to david.
i'd be interested to see that prophesy. it's common jewish belief that the messiah will be a son of david, because he will be a king of judah/israel, and all hebrew kings are promised to be of the line of david in samuel.
however, jesus never sat on the throne at jerusalem, did he?
but aside from that, you dodged the question. which genealogy is right? or should be believe paul and ignore them?
God choose the men who would write the bible and led there hand to write what was true or else he would not have picked them to write it. Please point out the problems you think it has. I would like to see them.
i believe i pointed one out above, which you failed to address.
want another good one?
Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.
the morning star, as everyone should know, is "lucifer" in latin. wanna explain that one to me? took me a year to figure out.
He didnt lie they did die, but not phsycly. Instead they died spirtually having sinned and become seperated from God cause of there sin. God also made the 10 comandments wich stats "thou shalt not lie" so why would he break his own law.
is god held to his own requirements?
then ten commandments are a form of treaty, called a suzeranty. it's a treaty between a larger and a smaller power. we have lots of these documents from the period and area, and they all open by singing the praises of the larger power. "because i did this for you.... you must do this for me" and then they list requirements. the ten commadnments is structured exactly like this. the laws are aimed directly and only at the hebrews.
why would god break them? who cares? who are we to question god?
and "spiritual death" is still meaningless. the hebrew word in that verse is מות and this is the very same מות that is used in:
quote:
Gen 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
clearly, the word means physical, literal death.
Yes today we do but back then they got to be freinds with Neros pets in the coloseum. In a way if you look at they where kind of tax-exempt though.
actually, at the time of christ, the jewish temple was exempt from paying taxes to rome.
Paul became dog poor after a wihle by the way. Its not cheap to do all that traveling so he had nothing to gain.
if he followed the true teachings of christ, i'd imagine so. christ was a bit of a hippie, and went around teaching people to give away stuff.
They were killed cause Nero was siko and liked to torment people.
actually, nero was inattentive and out of touch with what was really happening in rome, let alone the roman empire. i doubt nero would have even known about paul.
but i bet his underlings did.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Swift, posted 12-08-2004 11:35 PM Swift has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Swift, posted 12-09-2004 8:43 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 58 of 215 (166409)
12-09-2004 1:59 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by dpardo
12-08-2004 7:31 PM


Re: The one whom Jesus loved....
Notice how in the second paragraph there is a shift from the term "God" to "King".
Am I on to something here?
no.
if were to type a long paragraph, and only call god "G-d" in every instance, and then in another paragraph only call god "LORD" in every instance, and then in a third, only refer to god as "Jehovah" in every instance, wouldn't it look like i had copied and pasted from an orthodox jewish source, and a christian bible, and a JW source?
we have two very distinct ways of refering to god in the torah:
אֱלֹהִים (Elohym) as in genesis 1:1-2:4 and
יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים (Yahweh-Elohym) as in genesis 2:4-25
notice how elohym is repeated, but the YHWH is left off the first one? why is that? the occur in very consistent patterns too. YHWH is not used once in genesis 1. when it makes the switch to YWHW-ELHYM in chapter 2, elohym alone is only used once until chapter 5 and left out entirely in chapter 4.
curious, huh? why so consistent? i'm not dealing with three lines of text and creative ways to say "god" i'm looking at 5 whole chapters of the bible, and consistency in using or not using the name.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by dpardo, posted 12-08-2004 7:31 PM dpardo has not replied

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AdminPhat
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 215 (166460)
12-09-2004 4:10 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by arachnophilia
12-09-2004 1:59 AM


Re: The one whom Jesus loved....
John, guys. John. The Gospel. Not Genesis! (Although you made some good points, Arachnophilia!) Lets stay on topic or start a new one, though. Does anyone have anything new to say about the Gospel of John?
This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 12-09-2004 04:13 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by arachnophilia, posted 12-09-2004 1:59 AM arachnophilia has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 60 of 215 (166481)
12-09-2004 7:41 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by purpledawn
12-07-2004 7:21 PM


Follow or Acknowledge
I'm still waiting for dpardo to show that Jews, other than the 12, acknowledged Jesus as the messiah during his ministry. He also needs to show that those people who acknowledged Jesus as the messiah were excluded from the synagogues during the ministry of Jesus.
dpardo disagrees with my opinion in Message 22 that the verse John 9:19-22 depicts an unwarranted fear.
He first stated my thinking was in error in the "Jews Rejected God's Offer" thread, but gave no evidence to back up his opinion.
quote:
This should probably be, as I said, another topic but, the issue you raise is not whether his followers would be allowed in the synagogues but rather, someone who "confessed Christ".
Again in Message 30 of this thread he stated my thinking was in error, but no evidence.
quote:
I have already pointed out to you, in another thread, that you are equating, erroneously, following Christ with acknowledging that Jesus was the Christ.
Now if we move to the end of the story, we find that the Pharisees didn't throw him out because he acknowledged Jesus to be the messiah, but because he dared to lecture them.
When Jesus found the man after they threw him out, Jesus asked him:
John 9:35-37
..."Do you believe in the Son of Man?"
"Who is he, sir?" the man asked. "Tell me so that I may believe in him."
Jesus said, "You have now seen him in fact, he is the one speaking with you."
The man didn't know that Jesus was the messiah.
Show me that the Book of John is a reliable source, don't just tell me.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
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