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Author Topic:   The "Gospel" Of John
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 215 (166963)
12-10-2004 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by purpledawn
12-10-2004 7:43 AM


Re: Follow or Acknowledge
Purpledawn writes:
Not really a clear proclamation of Messiahship.
That scripture by Isaiah can only be fulfilled by the Messiah.
They that heard him understood what he said.
Notice their reaction in Luke 4:28-29:
28 And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,
29 And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by purpledawn, posted 12-10-2004 7:43 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by purpledawn, posted 12-10-2004 7:22 PM dpardo has replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 215 (166965)
12-10-2004 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by arachnophilia
12-10-2004 1:36 AM


Arachnophilia writes:
if god didn't want me to go hell, wouldn't he just say that i'm not going to hell? why did someone have to die for that?
and if it's the death that saved people, how did jesus forgive sins and grant salvation BEFORE his death?
quote:
Luk 7:48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.
Luk 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
Emphasis mine.
By faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by arachnophilia, posted 12-10-2004 1:36 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by arachnophilia, posted 12-10-2004 10:02 PM dpardo has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 78 of 215 (166966)
12-10-2004 1:23 PM


Well,I've held back on this for quite awhile...
but maybe I need to insert a few thoughts.
One of the more important things that can be leaarned from the Bible is an intimation of the Points of View, culture and society of those living when the various books were written. John was written during a major schism within the Jewish community. It reflects the beginnings of a Christian Church as something other than a Jewish Sect and a backlash against the rest of the Jewish community. It was an attempt by an author or authors to redefine the community that accepted Jesus as the Jewish Messiah and to distance that community from the rest of the Jewish communion.
The picture presented in John is totally different than found anywhere else and IMHO that was intentional. John was saying that the Gospels that preceeded his were simply wrong, they gave the wrong message. He was trying to develop the franchise, to build brand recognition for Christianity.
The author or authors of John had access to many of the other Gospels; Thomas, Mark, Matthew, Luke, Signs, Gospel of Peter, Gospel of the Egyptians, Gospel of the Hebrews, Secret Mark, and the Epistles of James and Mary. It was possibly based on the source shown in the Egerton Gospel and may be a direct dirivative of the social order portrayed there.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by dpardo, posted 12-10-2004 1:28 PM jar has replied
 Message 214 by Phat, posted 07-05-2017 11:27 AM jar has replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 215 (166967)
12-10-2004 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by jar
12-10-2004 1:23 PM


Re: Well,I've held back on this for quite awhile...
Jar writes:
John was saying that the Gospels that preceeded his were simply wrong, they gave the wrong message.
You never cease to amaze me.
Please provide evidence of this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by jar, posted 12-10-2004 1:23 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by jar, posted 12-10-2004 1:48 PM dpardo has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 80 of 215 (166971)
12-10-2004 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by dpardo
12-10-2004 1:28 PM


Re: Well,I've held back on this for quite awhile...
The evidence is the Gospel of John itself. It is a very different view of Jesus and of Christianity than found elsewhere.
Remember, we are looking at a period when there was no New Testament, no Christian Creedal base, no Canon. If you look at Matthew 25 and then move over to John you find totally different viewpoints. John is far more strident, more militantly Christian and anti-semetic than any of the other Gospels except a few such as found in the Egerton Gospel. It's likely he drew heavily from the Signs Gospel and there is that pervasive aspect of the Gospel of John towards defining Jesus as a Helenistic "Divinity".
There were also the writtings of Mara Bar-Serapion that were popular along about that time. He seemed to indicate that Jesus lived on in his teachings, a denial of the complete resurection, and he often made direct comparisons between the death of Jesus and the execution of Pythagoras and Aristole. He went so far as to draw parallels between what happened to the Jews, Greece and Samos based on those three philosophers.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by dpardo, posted 12-10-2004 1:28 PM dpardo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by dpardo, posted 12-10-2004 2:34 PM jar has replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 215 (166982)
12-10-2004 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by jar
12-10-2004 1:48 PM


Re: Well,I've held back on this for quite awhile...
IMO, the most important point to consider here is whether the teachings of the Gospels are contrary to each other or the rest of the New Testament (and all Bible scripture).
The teachings of the Gospel of John are consistent with the material in the Book of Acts, which details the work and miracles of the Apostles immediately after Jesus' death.
Can you please post evidence of anti-semitism in John's Gospel?
Edit: Grammar.
This message has been edited by dpardo, 12-10-2004 02:36 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by jar, posted 12-10-2004 1:48 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by jar, posted 12-10-2004 3:09 PM dpardo has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 82 of 215 (166988)
12-10-2004 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by dpardo
12-10-2004 2:34 PM


Re: Well,I've held back on this for quite awhile...
IMO, the most important point to consider here is whether the teachings of the Gospels are contrary to each other or the rest of the New Testament (and all Bible scripture).
But John is not consistent with Matthew. And there is little consistency within ANY of the Bible or Scripture. There are way too many examples of where one Book or even one passage of the same book is contrary to others.
The point is that among the books of the Bible, what is the message? It's not whether or not any of the Books can be taken literally.
John has a different take. For example, the contention that salvation must come through the acknowledgement of Jesus is totally contrary to the other Gospels and meant to exclude the Jewish community.
Look through John and you'll find a far greater number of instances where "Jews" are identified as non-believers and even villains, for example is 9:8 and 10:31, as well as the assertion of the superiority of the Christian revelation over the Judaic. You can see signs of that in John 1:18 or in 6:49-50.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by dpardo, posted 12-10-2004 2:34 PM dpardo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by dpardo, posted 12-10-2004 3:31 PM jar has replied
 Message 84 by dpardo, posted 12-10-2004 4:47 PM jar has not replied
 Message 202 by Phat, posted 01-25-2015 10:47 AM jar has replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 83 of 215 (166992)
12-10-2004 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by jar
12-10-2004 3:09 PM


Re: Well,I've held back on this for quite awhile...
Look through John and you'll find a far greater number of instances where "Jews" are identified as non-believers and even villains, for example is 9:8 and 10:31, as well as...
Some Jews were non-believers?
And, John identified more of them?
John 9:8:
8 The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged?
?
You also mentioned John 10:31:
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
This was in response to Jesus saying (in John 10:30):
30 I and my Father are one.
This is your evidence of anti-semitism?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by jar, posted 12-10-2004 3:09 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by jar, posted 12-10-2004 6:06 PM dpardo has replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 84 of 215 (167019)
12-10-2004 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by jar
12-10-2004 3:09 PM


Re: Well,I've held back on this for quite awhile...
Jar writes:
John has a different take. For example, the contention that salvation must come through the acknowledgement of Jesus is totally contrary to the other Gospels and meant to exclude the Jewish community.
Matthew 10:32-33:
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Mark 8:38:
38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
Mark 12:1-11:
1 And he began to speak unto them by parables. A certain man planted a vineyard, and set an hedge about it, and digged a place for the winefat, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country.
2 And at the season he sent to the husbandmen a servant, that he might receive from the husbandmen of the fruit of the vineyard.
3 And they caught him, and beat him, and sent him away empty.
4 And again he sent unto them another servant; and at him they cast stones, and wounded him in the head, and sent him away shamefully handled.
5 And again he sent another; and him they killed, and many others; beating some, and killing some.
6 Having yet therefore one son, his wellbeloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son.
7 But those husbandmen said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance shall be ours.
8 And they took him, and killed him, and cast him out of the vineyard.
9 What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others.
10 And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:
11 This was the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by jar, posted 12-10-2004 3:09 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 85 of 215 (167043)
12-10-2004 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by dpardo
12-10-2004 3:31 PM


Re: Well,I've held back on this for quite awhile...
Exactly. This is the beginnings of Blaim the Jews.
It is not an issue of what the stoning was a response too, it is that it is included. That was not included in the other Gospels.
You know, I really don't understand what your problem is? What is it you are trying to show?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by dpardo, posted 12-10-2004 3:31 PM dpardo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by dpardo, posted 12-10-2004 6:14 PM jar has replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 86 of 215 (167044)
12-10-2004 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by jar
12-10-2004 6:06 PM


Re: Well,I've held back on this for quite awhile...
You know, I really don't understand what your problem is? What is it you are trying to show?
Jar,
Your question here reveals something important about you.
You, as a self-professed Christian, don't think there is a problem with the facile rejection of Bible scripture?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by jar, posted 12-10-2004 6:06 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by jar, posted 12-10-2004 9:05 PM dpardo has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 87 of 215 (167050)
12-10-2004 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by dpardo
12-10-2004 1:04 PM


Re: Follow or Acknowledge
quote:
That scripture by Isaiah can only be fulfilled by the Messiah.
It doesn't read as a messianic prophecy. Isaiah was the one anointed to spread the good news in his time, but please don't go off on that tangent. Its accuracy isn't relevant to our discussion.
After Jesus said the scripture is fulfilled in your hearing, the people spoke well of him and were amazed at the gracious words. At this point they were not upset.
Jesus anticipated that they would ask him to do in Nazareth (his hometown) what he had done in Capernaum.
Jesus then explained that a prophet is not accepted in his hometown. He used Elijah and Elisha as examples. Their hometowns did not benefit from their anointings.
Then the people were furious.
It wasn't the the reading from Isaiah that upset them.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by dpardo, posted 12-10-2004 1:04 PM dpardo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by dpardo, posted 12-10-2004 8:16 PM purpledawn has replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 215 (167058)
12-10-2004 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by purpledawn
12-10-2004 7:22 PM


Re: Follow or Acknowledge
Purpledawn writes:
It doesn't read as a messianic prophecy. Isaiah was the one anointed to spread the good news in his time, but please don't go off on that tangent. Its accuracy isn't relevant to our discussion.
After Jesus said the scripture is fulfilled in your hearing, the people spoke well of him and were amazed at the gracious words. At this point they were not upset.
Purpledawn,
Reason with me.
If what you say is true concerning Isaiah, why did Jesus say the scripture is fulfilled in their hearing?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by purpledawn, posted 12-10-2004 7:22 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by purpledawn, posted 12-11-2004 1:05 PM dpardo has not replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 89 of 215 (167061)
12-10-2004 8:30 PM


Purpledawn,
I have to go off-line now but I'll be back later on or tomorrow.

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 90 of 215 (167067)
12-10-2004 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by dpardo
12-10-2004 6:14 PM


Re: Well,I've held back on this for quite awhile...
You, as a self-professed Christian, don't think there is a problem with the facile rejection of Bible scripture?
If you mean that I understand that the Bible was written by men, with all of the limitations, bias, politics, cultural influence of any men, that it is an anthology of anthologies that has been edited, redacted, changed, modified and revised time and time again, that it was written in the idiom of the day using references that would have had meaning to their peers, then you are correct.
The Bible is a book of Religion, not a book of GOD.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by dpardo, posted 12-10-2004 6:14 PM dpardo has not replied

  
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