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Author Topic:   The "Gospel" Of John
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 22 of 215 (165852)
12-07-2004 7:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by macaroniandcheese
12-04-2004 11:45 AM


Since the originator of this thread requested accuracy and inerrancy, my post will be constructed in that vein.
The author of the Book of John is unknown. By tradition it is considered to be written by the apostle John.
If the book was written by John the apostle, then as a disciple and a Jew, who was supposedly witness to the transfiguration of Jesus (Mark 9:2-8, Matthew 17:1-13, Luke 9:28-36), he should not have made the following mistakes:
John 9:19-22
...22 His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jews, for already the Jews had decided that anyone who acknowledged that Jesus was the Christ would be put out of the synagogue.
During the ministry of Jesus, his followers were allowed in the synagogues. So the parents in verse 22 would not need to fear the Jews during the life of Jesus. Only after the institution of Petition 12 of the Prayer of 18 Petitions reworded to include Christians (Nazarenes) were the Christians not welcome in the synagogues.
Excerpt from "A History of the Jews by Paul Johnson 1987
The collapse of the Jewish--Christian church after 70 AD and the triumph of Hellenistic Christianity led the Jews, in turn, to castigate the Christians. ...Under the rule of Raban Gamaliel II, the Twelfth Benediction or Birkat ha-Minim (Benediction concerning heretics) was recast to apply to Christians and this seems to have been the point at which the remaining Jewish followers of Christ were turned out of the synagogue.
The author of John uses wording that presents Jesus as non-Jewish.
John 8:17
"Even in your law it has been written that the testimony of two men is true.
John 10:34
Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS'?
In the synoptics Jesus did not distance himself from Jewish Law. The statement made in 10:34 is from Psalm 82 which is not part of the Law or Torah.
In the synoptics Jesus keeps his messiahship a secret, but not so in John.
John 7:53-8:11 (The woman accused of adultery) is not included in older manuscripts. Evidence that the book has probably been altered.
Given these and other discrepancies, I personally consider the Book of John to be an unreliable source as to the character and teachings of Jesus.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-04-2004 11:45 AM macaroniandcheese has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by dpardo, posted 12-07-2004 4:48 PM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 33 of 215 (166004)
12-07-2004 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by dpardo
12-07-2004 4:48 PM


quote:
I have already pointed out to you, in another thread, that you are equating, erroneously, following Christ with acknowledging that Jesus was the Christ.
Don't just tell me, show me!
Show me, somewhere other than the Book of John, that Jews who acknowledged that Jesus was the messiah were put out of the synagogue during the ministry of Jesus.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by dpardo, posted 12-07-2004 4:48 PM dpardo has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by purpledawn, posted 12-09-2004 7:41 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 60 of 215 (166481)
12-09-2004 7:41 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by purpledawn
12-07-2004 7:21 PM


Follow or Acknowledge
I'm still waiting for dpardo to show that Jews, other than the 12, acknowledged Jesus as the messiah during his ministry. He also needs to show that those people who acknowledged Jesus as the messiah were excluded from the synagogues during the ministry of Jesus.
dpardo disagrees with my opinion in Message 22 that the verse John 9:19-22 depicts an unwarranted fear.
He first stated my thinking was in error in the "Jews Rejected God's Offer" thread, but gave no evidence to back up his opinion.
quote:
This should probably be, as I said, another topic but, the issue you raise is not whether his followers would be allowed in the synagogues but rather, someone who "confessed Christ".
Again in Message 30 of this thread he stated my thinking was in error, but no evidence.
quote:
I have already pointed out to you, in another thread, that you are equating, erroneously, following Christ with acknowledging that Jesus was the Christ.
Now if we move to the end of the story, we find that the Pharisees didn't throw him out because he acknowledged Jesus to be the messiah, but because he dared to lecture them.
When Jesus found the man after they threw him out, Jesus asked him:
John 9:35-37
..."Do you believe in the Son of Man?"
"Who is he, sir?" the man asked. "Tell me so that I may believe in him."
Jesus said, "You have now seen him in fact, he is the one speaking with you."
The man didn't know that Jesus was the messiah.
Show me that the Book of John is a reliable source, don't just tell me.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by purpledawn, posted 12-07-2004 7:21 PM purpledawn has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by dpardo, posted 12-09-2004 2:03 PM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 66 of 215 (166704)
12-09-2004 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by dpardo
12-09-2004 2:03 PM


Re: Follow or Acknowledge
quote:
To my knowledge, there is no verse(s) in the other gospels that corroborates John's statement in John 9:22:
It doesn't have to be the gospels. Check history during the ministry of Jesus.
quote:
It is a reasonable statement though.
Yes it was reasonable once the Jews would not accept the "Christian" sect as part of Judaism, which was after the destruction of the temple and not during the ministry of Jesus.
The question though is, was it a valid fear during the ministry of Jesus? I've shown evidence that it wasn't. Show me evidence that it was.
Did Jesus reveal that he was the messiah to anyone aside from the 12 before his trial? The synoptics sound as though he didn't.
quote:
In Matthew 26:63-66 Jesus acknowledges that he is, in fact, the Messiah and he is accused of blasphemy by the high priest and summarily sentenced to death-
Stay within the timeline of the statement. Jesus didn't heal the blind man after his trial.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by dpardo, posted 12-09-2004 2:03 PM dpardo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by dpardo, posted 12-09-2004 9:09 PM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 73 of 215 (166902)
12-10-2004 7:43 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by dpardo
12-09-2004 9:09 PM


Re: Follow or Acknowledge
quote:
Luke 24
And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country.
He refered to himself as a prophet and backed up this statement with comparisons to Elijah and Elisha, who were prophets apparently not accepted in their own country.
Not really a clear proclamation of Messiahship.
But if you feel that the verses you shared show that Jesus publicly claimed to be the messiah, what evidence do you have that regular people were thrown out of the synagogues during his ministry for claiming Jesus was the messiah?

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by dpardo, posted 12-09-2004 9:09 PM dpardo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by dpardo, posted 12-10-2004 1:04 PM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 87 of 215 (167050)
12-10-2004 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by dpardo
12-10-2004 1:04 PM


Re: Follow or Acknowledge
quote:
That scripture by Isaiah can only be fulfilled by the Messiah.
It doesn't read as a messianic prophecy. Isaiah was the one anointed to spread the good news in his time, but please don't go off on that tangent. Its accuracy isn't relevant to our discussion.
After Jesus said the scripture is fulfilled in your hearing, the people spoke well of him and were amazed at the gracious words. At this point they were not upset.
Jesus anticipated that they would ask him to do in Nazareth (his hometown) what he had done in Capernaum.
Jesus then explained that a prophet is not accepted in his hometown. He used Elijah and Elisha as examples. Their hometowns did not benefit from their anointings.
Then the people were furious.
It wasn't the the reading from Isaiah that upset them.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by dpardo, posted 12-10-2004 1:04 PM dpardo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by dpardo, posted 12-10-2004 8:16 PM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 96 of 215 (167175)
12-11-2004 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by dpardo
12-10-2004 8:16 PM


Re: Follow or Acknowledge
Dpardo,
It took me over 5 years of prayer and research to come to terms with and understand the reality of the Bible. My spirituality has matured beyond dogma and tradition.
You have shown displeasure in the past concerning the frankness of my answers, but then you ask me:
quote:
Reason with me.
If what you say is true concerning Isaiah, why did Jesus say the scripture is fulfilled in their hearing?
I will answer your question to the best of my ability and understanding, but you must realize that what I say may cause you some spiritual discomfort. Just remember that your trust should be in God and not the book, its authors, or me. Find the reality.
Also if you wish to continue this line of discussion, you need to open a new thread, since this thread is on the Book of John.
The quote: Commentaries state that what Jesus read was from the Septuagint, so I included that translation also. Remember we are at the mercy of dead languages and translators.
Dare to compare!
Isaiah 61:1-2 (Tanakh)
1 The spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to bring good tidings unto the humble; He hath sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the eyes to them that are bound; 2 To proclaim the year of the LORD'S good pleasure,
Isaiah 61:1-2 (Septuagint)
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me; he has sent me to preach glad tidings to the poor, to heal the broken in heart, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and recovery of sight to the blind; to declare the acceptable year of the Lord
Isaiah 61:1-2 (NIV)
The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, Because the LORD has anointed me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives And freedom to prisoners; To proclaim the favorable year of the LORD
Luke 4:18-19 (NRS)
"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to bring good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."
The Gospel of Luke was probably written about 80-130CE. You would need to research that on your own and see what you believe.
As you can see the quote in Luke is not exact, even to the Septuagint. Bind up the brokenhearted is not written in Luke.
Now look at the line recovery of sight to the blind. The NIV version of Isaiah doesn’t have it and the Tanakh sounds more like spiritual blindness, than physical blindness. Of course you could say that recovery of sight to the blind could also concern spiritual blindness.
Did Jesus actually read the written passage from the scroll? IMO, doubtful.
Now what does the author mean by fulfilled in your hearing?
As I understand it, when the Jewish say that you have fulfilled Torah, it means that you have interpreted it correctly. (to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be)
If we define fulfill as to bring to realization, we have to ask: were all these things accomplished at the time of the reading?
Were captives released?
Were prisoners set free?
Did Jesus proclaim the year of the LORD’s favor?
Did all of the situations mentioned happen during his ministry?
IMO the point of the author’s story was to present Jesus as an anointed prophet.
I can’t tell you that my impression is the correct impression, but then neither can the clergy. You have to investigate the information yourself and remember that the people in the Bible were real people.
Try to understand both sides of the coin. The authors of the Bible presented their religious and political views of their culture within their lifetime. Some of the stories have political and religious agendas and others teach lessons.
Remember the authors may or may not have had control over how their writings were eventually used or changed.
Now since this discussion is about the Book of John, this story does not show that regular people were thrown out of the synagogues for acknowledging Jesus as the Messiah, which is what you were trying to show me concerning the story in John 9:22.
Enjoy the journey!

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by dpardo, posted 12-10-2004 8:16 PM dpardo has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 100 of 215 (167222)
12-11-2004 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by dpardo
12-11-2004 1:13 PM


Jesus was not a sacrifice to forgive sins
quote:
Although Jesus did forgive sins during his ministry, his death serves as a perpetual atonement for sin.
There is a thread in Faith and Belief concerning this topic. You might want to go there and tangle with Arach.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by dpardo, posted 12-11-2004 1:13 PM dpardo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by dpardo, posted 12-11-2004 4:23 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 102 by dpardo, posted 12-11-2004 4:25 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 104 of 215 (167326)
12-12-2004 7:00 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by dpardo
12-11-2004 4:23 PM


Back to the Blind Man
Why to you react so harshly to a simple note that shows you there is a thread concerning the off topic discussion you are engaging in?
Since there is a limit to the number of posts in a thread, I feel it is inconsiderate to continue an off topic discussion or waste posts such as Message 101 and Message 102.
I wouldn't want this thread to end before you get a chance to show me that regular Jews were expelled from the synagogues for acknowledging that Jesus was the Messiah.
The story in John 9 doesn't really deal with anyone claiming that Jesus is the Messiah. The Pharisees were upset because Jesus had made mud and restored a man's sight on the Sabbath.
Some of the Pharisees said, "This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath."
But others asked, "How can a sinner do such miraculous signs?"
They were trying to discern if the was a man of God or not. The blind man told them Jesus was a prophet.
There is nothing in the story that says the blind man or his parents considered Jesus to be the Messiah.
The man was thrown out of the temple because he dared to lecture the Pharisees and Jesus didn't reveal his status to the man until after he was thrown out.
I haven't found anything in the synoptics that suggests that regular people were thrown out of the synagogues for verbally acknowledging that Jesus was the Messiah. It is questionable that anyone knew outside of the 12, which oddly enough is where our thread discussing the supposed "offer" made to the Jews has settled.
People following Jesus or knowing that he was the Messiah didn't change how they behaved in the synagogues. As far as we can tell they worshipped the same as always.
The one organized effort I know of to separate the Nazarene sect from the rest of Judaism was the rewritten 12th petition. Those who wouldn't read the curse were thrown out. This was about 80-90CE.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by dpardo, posted 12-11-2004 4:23 PM dpardo has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 127 of 215 (167623)
12-13-2004 6:06 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Swift
12-12-2004 11:07 PM


quote:
What I mean is that they use to have to give sacrafice and now we dont cause of Jesus. All we have to do is ask.
You really should check out the thread concerning sacrifice for sin.
Hezekiah had the local places of worship (high places) eliminated, prefering that the religion be centralized at the Temple in Jerusalem.
Excerpt from "Who Wrote the Bible?" by Richard Elliott Friedman 1987
The function of sacrifice is one of the most misunderstood matters in the Bible. Modern readers often take it to mean the unnecessary taking of animal life, or they believe that the person who offered the sacrifice was giving up something of his or her own in order to compensate for some sin or perhaps to win God's favor. In the biblical world, however, the most common type of sacrifice was for meals. The apparent rationale was that if humans wanted to eat meat they had to recognize that they were taking life. The could not regard this as an ordinary act of daily secular life. It was a sacred act... A portion of the sacrifice (a tithe) was given to the priest.
In Genesis we find:
Ge 31:54
Then Jacob offered a sacrifice on the mountain, and called his kinsmen to the meal; and they ate the meal and spent the night on the mountain.
Interestingly enough the hebrew word for sacrifice "zebach" means to slaughter. The greek "thusia" means victim.
In the sacrifice thread I have also shown that sacrifice was for unintentional sin, not intentional sin.
Sacrifice was not mandatory for forgiveness of sin. So if you truly want to get into a discussion on sacrifice, go to the appropriate thread.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Swift, posted 12-12-2004 11:07 PM Swift has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by robinrohan, posted 12-13-2004 6:27 PM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 144 of 215 (168001)
12-14-2004 6:42 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by robinrohan
12-13-2004 6:27 PM


My reply is here.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by robinrohan, posted 12-13-2004 6:27 PM robinrohan has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 156 of 215 (168547)
12-15-2004 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by dpardo
12-09-2004 2:03 PM


Re: Follow or Acknowledge
Since you prefer to play ring-around-the-roses with Arach, can I assume that you are done with our discussion of John 9:22 and that you concede that Jews were not thrown out of the synagogues for following or acknowledging Jesus during his ministry?
quote:
dpardo wrote:
To my knowledge, there is no verse(s) in the other gospels that corroborates John's statement in John 9:22

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by dpardo, posted 12-09-2004 2:03 PM dpardo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by dpardo, posted 12-15-2004 2:22 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 158 by dpardo, posted 12-15-2004 2:31 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 159 of 215 (168642)
12-15-2004 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by dpardo
12-15-2004 2:22 PM


Re: Follow or Acknowledge
Are you saying we are not done with our discussion or you just want to start the cycle all over again?
quote:
dpardo wrote:
So I am talking about someone confessing Jesus as the Messiah and you are talking about Jesus' followers.
In Message 33 I already rephrased the statement since you don't consider followers as people who have acknowledged Jesus as the messiah.
quote:
I wrote:
Show me, somewhere other than the Book of John, that Jews who acknowledged that Jesus was the messiah were put out of the synagogue during the ministry of Jesus.
If you notice, I did use synagogue (singular).
quote:
dpardo wrote:
First, let me point out to you that the term in question is synagogue (singular) not synagogues (plural).
Please don't waste my time with word games.
So far you have not shown me any evidence to counter my thoughts in Message 22.
quote:
I wrote:
During the ministry of Jesus, his followers were allowed in the synagogues. So the parents in verse 22 would not need to fear the Jews during the life of Jesus. Only after the institution of Petition 12 of the Prayer of 18 Petitions reworded to include Christians (Nazarenes) were the Christians not welcome in the synagogues.
You have fussed over followers as opposed to acknowledged and synagogues as opposed to synagogue.
If you wish to seriously continue this discussion:
Show me evidence that Jews who homologeo (confessed, professed, conceded, praised, declared, or acknowledged) openly that Jesus was the messiah were thrown out of the synagogue in Jerusalem, which is where the Pool of Siloam is located, during the ministry of Jesus.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by dpardo, posted 12-15-2004 2:22 PM dpardo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by dpardo, posted 12-15-2004 5:22 PM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 165 of 215 (168730)
12-15-2004 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by dpardo
12-15-2004 5:22 PM


Re: Follow or Acknowledge
You tell me.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by dpardo, posted 12-15-2004 5:22 PM dpardo has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 182 of 215 (169165)
12-16-2004 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by dpardo
12-16-2004 1:06 PM


John Requires Belief in Jesus
Peter didn't speak of belief in Jesus.
Acts 3:19
Repent, then and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, and that he may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you--even Jesus. He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. For Moses said, "The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you.
Jesus told the Jews to repent and believe the "Good News" which is that the Kingdom of God was imminent. Jesus did not tell them to believe that he was the messiah or the son of God.
The apostles baptised in the name of Jesus, which is with his authority not that people must believe that he is the son of God.
If you notice, the Book of John doesn't talk of repentance. The author of John speaks of belief in Jesus as the son of God.
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
Peter is not in agreement with the author of John.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by dpardo, posted 12-16-2004 1:06 PM dpardo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by dpardo, posted 12-17-2004 11:46 AM purpledawn has replied
 Message 185 by dpardo, posted 12-17-2004 11:58 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
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