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Author Topic:   The "Gospel" Of John
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 170 of 215 (168808)
12-16-2004 4:25 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by dpardo
12-15-2004 11:37 AM


Jesus sacrifice was not exactly like the animal sacrificies. I think it's pretty obvious but...
yes.
I already posted the explanation in Message 97.
and i replied that jesus doesn't fit the bill.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by dpardo, posted 12-15-2004 11:37 AM dpardo has replied

Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 171 of 215 (168809)
12-16-2004 4:29 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by dpardo
12-15-2004 11:45 AM


Now you are quote mining Jesus.
no, that was you. you challenged me to miracles: healing the sick, casting out devils, etc.
i was exposing your quotemine by posting the rest of it, and offering the very same challenge to you. if you expect me heal the sick, i expect you to drink posion. quid pro quo, clarice.
He was specifically addressing the Apostles.
yes, about their evangelism. he presented those as a sign that they were on the right track. it's not that the apostle would be able to heal the sick and cast out devils and drink posion, but that they told who really believed would.
i mean, that is what the verse says. look at the quote-framing, it's in the address to the apostles abotu us, not to us about the apostles.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by dpardo, posted 12-15-2004 11:45 AM dpardo has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 172 of 215 (168810)
12-16-2004 4:32 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by dpardo
12-15-2004 11:47 AM


The thing is, Arachnophilia, that without Paul, what you have is Arachnophilian Christianity.
so i need someone to tell me what jesus said my god said? i thought this was a personal relationship, not a friend of a friend of a friend business.
there were other churches that did not have paul at their foundation, you know. nighttrain pointed out one, but the gnostics didn't either. and it should be pointed out as well that PETER was left in charge, not paul.
we have lots of stuff about jesus without paul.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by dpardo, posted 12-15-2004 11:47 AM dpardo has replied

Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 173 of 215 (168811)
12-16-2004 4:38 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by dpardo
12-15-2004 12:03 PM


The context of Paul's letter to the Galatians that follows is: the gospel had been preached to the Galatians and the Church at Galatia was growing and maturing...
you grossly missed the point here dpardo.
even though i often disagree with paul, he is not rebutting what i said regarding the hebrew religion. it doesn't just fall apart with one quote from a converted jew.
he says the jews are not saved by following the law. my point, as you quoted, was that the law has nothing to do with it. they don't even think in terms of salvation: they're god's chosen. they're ALL "saved" no matter what. they follow the law out of reverance for that fact.
the law is not a curse, because it is not the key to salvation, nor is it neccessary. it's just a fact that every jew accepts to some level -- some more than others.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 174 of 215 (168812)
12-16-2004 4:41 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by dpardo
12-15-2004 12:24 PM


I will read the entire account again and get back to you on this one. What you are saying makes sense.
If they were prevented from returning the items because the Pharoah changed his mind (yet again) and sent the Egyptian Army after them, is it stealing?
yes, but the verse quoted was from the plan of the exodus. the whole point of it was that they weren't coming back, whatever pharoah said. the idea was never ACTUALLY just going out and returning, it was always leaving and going to the promised land. moses (or rather aaron) just told pharoah that so that he'd let them leave without, you know, killing them all or something.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 175 of 215 (168813)
12-16-2004 4:45 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by dpardo
12-15-2004 2:22 PM


Re: Follow or Acknowledge
So I am talking about someone confessing Jesus as the Messiah and you are talking about Jesus' followers.
anyone saying anyone else is christ tends to get you thrown out of jewish synagogues. in their mind, when the messiah comes, EVERYONE will know it, because he will sit on the throne and unite israel.
seen the third part of lord of the rings? that's the sort of messiah they're looking for.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 176 of 215 (168814)
12-16-2004 4:46 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by dpardo
12-15-2004 2:31 PM


Re: Follow or Acknowledge
Since you prefer to play ring-around-the-roses with Arach
I am not "playing".
I am addressing points brought up by other EVC members.
i feel like we're running in circles.

This message is a reply to:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 183 of 215 (169232)
12-17-2004 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by dpardo
12-16-2004 12:30 PM


consolidated, because this is getting ridiculous.
You are wasting your time playing word games with me.
no, not really. this is the fundamental nature of the problem here. it's not a word game. is it within god's power to forgive without demanding anything in return? to say no is to challenge the omnipotence of god.
know that you have atleast some basic understanding of God- how much of the bible you reject, I do not know.
i don't know either. still haven't read all of it. and my understanding of god, and reading of the bible is always evolving.
Among his other attributes, God is Just, Holy, and Good. He cannot violate his nature because he is not self-contradictory.
I know that you understand this concept.
and yet the bible proves you wrong on so many numerous occasions. whole biblical texts like job deal with trying to explain an unjust god. i know you've seen the other thread where i listed some of the instances in which god does not follow his own rules.
it's not wrong of god. he's god, and his law and standards of justness are for US. we are not measured on the same scale, because god cannot be measured on ANY scale.
the bible records so very many instances of a contradictory god. your view simply cannot be right, if you claim you believe in the bible.
BTW, the prodigal son's father, as portrayed in the parable, is not God. So, "yes", he can "just" forgive as indeed Christ has commanded us (humans) to forgive.
so an ordinary human being is more powerful than god?
and yes, the father in the story IS god. christ is telling us about the forgiveness of god.
If you don't believe that Jesus died so that you can be reconciled to God, what do you believe?
not sure. like i said, "crisis of faith." which means i don't know what to think. you also seem to forget that i'm coming from the same exact viewpoint and set of beliefs that you are. replying with things i've heard all my life doesn't help.
You must be in such a state of confusion right now!
quite.
You can post a link to a thread where you described your beliefs if you've already posted your beliefs elsewhere.
what prompted me to become a christian ironically was not christ. it was abraham. yep, converted by genesis, of all books. strange, no? something about the god of abraham struck me as fundamentally true, and i chose to believe in the system that told me about him.
that and i agreed with all the teachings of jesus. he sounded like a very wise and smart man, so i chose to believe he was the son of god and died for me. but i think i was supposed to be jewish. my beliefs line up much more closely with reform judaism.
next fall i'm probably going to start working on learning hebrew.
Peter and Paul and the other apostles are in agreement in doctrine.
actually, peter had a separate church.
I don't know why you postulate that they had different doctrines.
history is told by the victors. we have stuff now that indicates some of the positions of belief systems that got killed off (sometimes literally) by pauline christianity.
In Acts 4:12, Peter addresses the High Priest, elders, scribes, etc.:
well, yes. their overall beliefs were basically the same: all believed in jesus. you and i are the same in that respect (for the moment at least), but look at how different our view points are.
see purpledawn's post. he knows what's going on. my beliefs are closer to what he describes peter as saying, your's are obviously in favor of john's.
In Acts 5:12-16, again we see a powerful, UNITED, group of apostles. You paint a picture of different doctrines which simply is not the case:
acts was also written by luke, who lived some time after the events, probably during a united pauline church. he set about writing luke/acts in order to consolidate a history of the church and it's traditions, and so you should expect to see some unifactions.
luke also did not check historical accuracy very well. he reports the slaughter of the innocent (which mimics passover) that appears nowhere in any historical document (roman or jewish) from the time.
we know for a fact that peter and paul were of different sects, with different books. and we know that MANY such different sects existed until about ad 330, when constantine converted and ordered a collection of the books, and the unifaction process began under the pauline church. for what reason, i'm unsure.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by dpardo, posted 12-16-2004 12:30 PM dpardo has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 187 by dpardo, posted 12-17-2004 12:09 PM arachnophilia has replied
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 190 of 215 (169548)
12-17-2004 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by dpardo
12-17-2004 12:09 PM


consolidates, again. job moved to new thread.
The forgiveness of an ordinary human being is not the same as God's forgiveness.
then why does jesus compare them?
We didn't make the rules. Neither did we make the punishment.
usually, the things we forgive other people are tresspasses against us. the things go forgives of us are tresspasses against god. i don't see a difference; in both cases it is the rule-making party forgiving the rule-breaking party. that is, afterall, the definition of forgiveness.
Our rules and punishments are not the same as God's rules and punishments.
why not?
No, the father in the story is not God. The story is of a human father that Jesus uses to construct a comparison that his audience would understand.
what's he making the comparison to, then? tell me you don't misunderstand ALL of jesus's parables this badly.
I thought Purpledawn was a "she".
"he" is, or used to be, the gender-neutral pronoun case in the english language. if i offended purpledawn, i'm sorry, but i didn't actually know which gender purpledawn was. perhaps "it" would be more preferential?
Perhaps it would clear some issues up if you read all of the bible.
you read amos? good book. nehemiah? there's 1500 pages of old testament alone, and i just don't have the time. i doubt you've read all of the bible either, but even if you have, you're showing signs of not having understood it. ie: the parables. and everyone's read those.
no, i don't suspect that the book of amos would clear anything up for me. or any of the other books i haven't read. the books i HAVE read cause enough problems. contradictions don't go away by addition, you know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by dpardo, posted 12-17-2004 12:09 PM dpardo has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by purpledawn, posted 12-17-2004 6:51 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 195 of 215 (169652)
12-18-2004 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 191 by purpledawn
12-17-2004 6:51 PM


For the record though or inquiring minds, I am a She.
then i will be sure to use the proper pronoun in the future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by purpledawn, posted 12-17-2004 6:51 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 210 of 215 (748431)
01-25-2015 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by Phat
01-25-2015 10:31 AM


Re: The one whom Jesus loved....
Phat writes:
Jar and I are touching on John now in another thread.
holy necropost, phat. you replied to a message that was nine years old.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Phat, posted 01-25-2015 10:31 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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