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Author
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Topic: The "Gospel" Of John
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dpardo
Inactive Member
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Arachnophilia writes: so there is something that god cannot do? blasphemy. Interesting attempt to quote mine me. God cannot just "brush off" sin because he is just and holy. It would be a violation of his nature and decrees. Even though you may not personally see it, all unconfessed and unrepented sin receives punishment.
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dpardo
Inactive Member
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Arachnophilia writes: in fact, those dead animals often served the purpose of feeding the clergy. tell me, did the sanhedrin eat jesus? Jesus sacrifice was not exactly like the animal sacrificies. I think it's pretty obvious but... I will find and post the explanation. Added in edit: I already posted the explanation in Message 97. This message has been edited by dpardo, 12-15-2004 12:18 PM
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dpardo
Inactive Member
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Arachnophilia writes: while we're on challenges of faith, try mark's definition of a christian on for size:
quote:
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
go drink some bleach and then give me an e-mail. Now you are quote mining Jesus. Mark 16:13-20 gives us the context of your quote:
13 And they [those that had seen the risen Christ] went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.
14 Afterward he [Jesus] appeared unto the eleven [Apostles] as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. He was specifically addressing the Apostles. I am not an Apostle like the eleven.
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dpardo
Inactive Member
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Arachnophilia writes: telling me to read that chapter would have been far more efficient. and i still don't like paul, nor pauline christianity. The thing is, Arachnophilia, that without Paul, what you have is Arachnophilian Christianity.
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dpardo
Inactive Member
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Arachnophilia writes: a jew is not "saved" by works. or faith. most that i've talked to don't even think that way. it's simply for who they are: god's chosen, and it's not in terms of being saved from anything. sticking to the law comes a form of respect god's love. The context of Paul's letter to the Galatians that follows is: the gospel had been preached to the Galatians and the Church at Galatia was growing and maturing... Galatians 1:6-24:
6 I [Paul] marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.
20 Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not.
21 Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia;
22 And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ:
23 But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed.
24 And they glorified God in me. Paul continues and explains to them what you are struggling with concerning the Law... Galatians 3:3-14:
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Emphasis mine. Edit: Grammar. This message has been edited by dpardo, 12-15-2004 12:08 PM
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dpardo
Inactive Member
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Arachnophilia writes: no, the original pretext of the whole charade was going out into the wilderness for a ceremony, from which they would return. it was this that pharoah wouldn't allow them to do, and this they were sending them to. the text would not say "lent" if they knew they wouldn't come back. seriously, read your own quote again. it's one big trick, that god himself actually plays a part in. I will read the entire account again and get back to you on this one. What you are saying makes sense. If they were prevented from returning the items because the Pharoah changed his mind (yet again) and sent the Egyptian Army after them, is it stealing?
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dpardo
Inactive Member
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Re: Follow or Acknowledge
Purpledawn writes: ...can I assume that you are done with our discussion of John 9:22 and that you concede that Jews were not thrown out of the synagogues for following or acknowledging Jesus during his ministry? First, let me point out to you that the term in question is synagogue (singular) not synagogues (plural). Second, the verse(s) in question in John 9:22 specifically says: 22 These words spake his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue." This is in contrast to your statement:
quote:
During the ministry of Jesus, his followers were allowed in the synagogues.
So I am talking about someone confessing Jesus as the Messiah and you are talking about Jesus' followers. As I said before, and I believe you have also noted, not all of his followers knew or believed that he was the Messiah. Since, ultimately, most Jews did not accept Jesus as the Messiah, John's statement is not inconsistent (and hence reasonable) with the Jews behavior.
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dpardo
Inactive Member
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Re: Follow or Acknowledge
Purpledawn writes: Since you prefer to play ring-around-the-roses with Arach I am not "playing". I am addressing points brought up by other EVC members.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 156 by purpledawn, posted 12-15-2004 1:19 PM | | purpledawn has not replied |
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dpardo
Inactive Member
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Re: Follow or Acknowledge
Purpledawn writes: Show me evidence that Jews who homologeo (confessed, professed, conceded, praised, declared, or acknowledged) openly that Jesus was the messiah were thrown out of the synagogue in Jerusalem, which is where the Pool of Siloam is located, during the ministry of Jesus. Is there any evidence, in the gospels, of anyone confessing Jesus as the Christ in a synagogue (in the time period we are referring to) period?
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dpardo
Inactive Member
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Nighttrain writes: No, without Paul what you have are the Ebionites, led by the physical brother of Jesus, James. Do they have a different gospel?
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dpardo
Inactive Member
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Arachnophilia writes: you said god can't do something. how is that a quotemine? i asked you if god could just forgive sin, and you said no. look, you did it again:
quote:
God cannot just "brush off" sin because he is just and holy. It would be a violation of his nature and decrees.
that, simply put, is blasphemy. god's nature is to exist. god can do whatever he wants. remember the parable of the prodigal son? what did his father do? the only thing that died in that story was dinner. the father just brushed of the son's "sin" and forgave him. You are wasting your time playing word games with me. I know that you have atleast some basic understanding of God- how much of the bible you reject, I do not know. Among his other attributes, God is Just, Holy, and Good. He cannot violate his nature because he is not self-contradictory. I know that you understand this concept. BTW, the prodigal son's father, as portrayed in the parable, is not God. So, "yes", he can "just" forgive as indeed Christ has commanded us (humans) to forgive.
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dpardo
Inactive Member
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Arachnophilia writes: and i replied that jesus doesn't fit the bill. Arachnophilia, If you don't believe that Jesus died so that you can be reconciled to God, what do you believe? You must be in such a state of confusion right now! You can post a link to a thread where you described your beliefs if you've already posted your beliefs elsewhere.
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dpardo
Inactive Member
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Arachnophilia writes: so i need someone to tell me what jesus said my god said? i thought this was a personal relationship, not a friend of a friend of a friend business. there were other churches that did not have paul at their foundation, you know. nighttrain pointed out one, but the gnostics didn't either. and it should be pointed out as well that PETER was left in charge, not paul. we have lots of stuff about jesus without paul. Peter and Paul and the other apostles are in agreement in doctrine. I don't know why you postulate that they had different doctrines. In Acts 2:38, during Pentecost, Peter and the apostles were together and this Peter preached:
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. In Acts 4:12, Peter addresses the High Priest, elders, scribes, etc.:
12 Neither is there salvation in any other [besides Jesus]: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Notice how this agrees with what John 3:17-18 says:
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Acts 4:33 presents a picture of a powerful, united group of Apostles:
33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. Does this sound to you like they are divided in their doctrines?
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dpardo
Inactive Member
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Arachnophilia, In Acts 5:12-16, again we see a powerful, UNITED, group of apostles. You paint a picture of different doctrines which simply is not the case:
12 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.
13 And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them.
14 And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)
15 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.
16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 181 by jar, posted 12-16-2004 2:39 PM | | dpardo has not replied |
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dpardo
Inactive Member
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Re: John Requires Belief in Jesus
Purpledawn writes: Peter didn't speak of belief in Jesus. 1 Peter 1-9:
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Purpledawn writes: If you notice, the Book of John doesn't talk of repentance.
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