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Author Topic:   The "Gospel" Of John
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3477 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 191 of 215 (169571)
12-17-2004 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by arachnophilia
12-17-2004 6:12 PM


quote:
"he" is, or used to be, the gender-neutral pronoun case in the english language.
No offense taken. Since we don't always know gender on this forum, I understood it as you intended.
For the record though or inquiring minds, I am a She.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by arachnophilia, posted 12-17-2004 6:12 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by arachnophilia, posted 12-18-2004 3:26 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3477 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 192 of 215 (169591)
12-17-2004 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by dpardo
12-17-2004 11:46 AM


Re: John Requires Belief in Jesus
The dpardo switch!
Since you jumped to 1 Peter, does that mean you understand that the speech supposedly made by Peter in Acts is not in agreement with the message in the Book of John?
The Book of 1 Peter is not considered to be written by the apostle Peter. It is considered to be written about 80-110CE. You'll have to research that yourself. If you read the Book of 1 Peter you will notice that the overall theme is not the same as Peter's speech in Acts. 1 Peter sounds more like Paul.
Concerning repentance and the Book of John:
You get points for trying.
The story in John 7:53-8:11 is not in the earlier manuscripts, so it is a later addition. This also shows the book has been altered.
Repentance and Sin
Literally repentance in the NT is a change in mind or heart.
Sin is to miss the mark or wander from the Laws of God.
The focus of the story in John 5 is the Sabbath. Jesus healing on the Sabbath and the man carrying his mat on the Sabbath. Repentance is not the theme of the story.
Read the stories.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by dpardo, posted 12-17-2004 11:46 AM dpardo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by dpardo, posted 12-17-2004 11:28 PM purpledawn has not replied
 Message 194 by Nighttrain, posted 12-18-2004 1:30 AM purpledawn has replied
 Message 197 by dpardo, posted 12-18-2004 2:13 PM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3477 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 196 of 215 (169709)
12-18-2004 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by Nighttrain
12-18-2004 1:30 AM


Pericope de Adultera
Interesting!
I did some reading. This story apparently had also been placed in the Book of Luke at one time.
It seems the Church Fathers or scribes had no problem excluding or including portions that suit their purpose. Pieces to a puzzle.
I find the story itself interesting.
The story states the woman was brought before Jesus to trap him.
As I understand it the Churches who used the story used it to show forgiveness.
Could the story be an actual representation?
The Law of Moses says to stone such women, but there is also the test of the bitter water (Numbers 5:20-31), which doesn't seem to end in death (unless the water got you). This was for suspicion of adultery.
Even Jesus said in Matthew 19:9 not to divorce except for immorality. If the wife was to be stoned, then there would have been no need to divorce.
Of course you would think that people committing adultery would be somewhat discrete so as not to have two witnesses.
Since they were standing in the temple courts, the Pharisees would not have stoned the woman right there anyway, neither could Jesus. Have you read the rules for stoning?
Excerpt from Babylonian Talmud
MISHNA IV.: The stoning-place was two heights of a man. One of the witnesses pushed him on his thighs (that he should fall with the back to the surface), but if he fell face down, he had to be turned over. If he died from the effects of the first fall, nothing more was to be done. If not, the second witness took a stone and thrust it against his heart. If he died, nothing more was to be done; but if not, all who were standing by had to throw stones on him. Thus [Deut. xvii. 7]: "The hand of the witnesses shall be first upon him, to put him to death, and the hand of all the people at the last."
Let's say the Pharisees did bring a woman who had not been charged yet to Jesus and claimed she was caught in the act of adultery. Now if Jesus answers that she should not be stoned, would he truly have broken any law?
Now if the woman truly was caught in the act of adultery, the Pharisees should have brought her before the Sanhedrin for judgement no matter what Jesus said. They themselves let her go.
Just throwing this out for discussion if you wish.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Nighttrain, posted 12-18-2004 1:30 AM Nighttrain has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3477 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 198 of 215 (169770)
12-18-2004 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by dpardo
12-18-2004 2:13 PM


quote:
The Book of Acts is sufficient to prove that the Gospel of John is consistent with the other gospels.
How are the words of Peter in the Book of Acts consistent with the Book of John?
quote:
I have shown you, however, that it is a reasonable claim given all of the animosity that the unbelieving Jews had toward Jesus.
By unbelieving, I assume you mean believing that Jesus was the Messiah or do you mean believing that the Kingdom of God is at hand? What were they not believing?
According to the synoptics Jesus kept his messiahship a secret from the general public, therefore no one would be able to confess him publicly. At most he claimed to be a prophet.
Matthew 21:11
And the crowds were saying, "This is the prophet Jesus, from Nazareth in Galilee."
I'm not sure where you see hostility in the synoptics aside from the last day. Some of the Jewish leaders are portrayed as trying to find fault with Jesus, but they aren't portrayed as coming against the Jewish people.
Mark 11:8-11 (Matthew 21:1-9, Luke 19:29-38, John 12:12-15)
...Those who went ahead and those who followed shouted, "Hosanna!"
"Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!"
"Blessed is the coming kingdom of our father David!"...
Hey, even the author of John agreed on this one!
quote:
Since there is no incident in the gospels of someone confessing Jesus as the Christ in a synagogue during his ministry, we can neither confirm nor deny the veracity of the verse.
You don't feel it is possible to extrapolate from the known factors in the synoptics?
quote:
Do you have the earliest manuscripts so that you can claim something like this?
Actually my Bible says it, not me.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by dpardo, posted 12-18-2004 2:13 PM dpardo has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Nighttrain, posted 12-18-2004 7:56 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3477 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 200 of 215 (171796)
12-27-2004 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by dpardo
12-18-2004 2:13 PM


Acts and John
I'm still waiting for you to explalin to me how the comments made by Peter in the Book of Acts are consistent with the Book of John.
Acts 3:19
Repent, then and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, and that he may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you--even Jesus. He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. For Moses said, "The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you.
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
In Acts Peter is speaking to a crowd of people.
In John, Jesus is speaking to Nicodemus.
How do the two concepts presented agree?

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by dpardo, posted 12-18-2004 2:13 PM dpardo has not replied

  
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