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Author Topic:   What is a True Christian?
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 211 of 329 (173131)
01-02-2005 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by Phat
01-02-2005 5:23 PM


Re: What is actually necessary to be a Christian
well, let's look and see what Hitler said and believed.
"I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work."
From Mein Kampf.
and...
Except the Lord built the house they labour in vain.... The truth of that text was proved if one looks at the house of which the foundations were laid in 1918 and which since then has been in building.... The world will not help, the people must help itself. Its own strength is the source of life. That strength the Almighty has given us to use; that in it and through it we may wage the battle of our life.... The others in the past years have not had the blessing of the Almighty-- of Him Who in the last resort, whatever man may do, holds in His hands the final decision. Lord God, let us never hesitate or play the coward, let us never forget the duty which we have taken upon us.... We are all proud that through God's powerful aid we have become once more true Germans.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech in March 1933
(Many, many more quotes available)
So Hitler not only believed he was a Christian he professed that he was a Christian. The Nazi party and Administration was recognized by the Vatican and relations were maintained throughout the existence of the Nazis.
Now in thread after thread here ay EvC I have said the Salvation was determined by behavior while many here have said that it is belief (specifically a belief in Jesus and Christian Dogma).
So which is it?
Hitler believed he was a Christian and that his actions were doing the Christian Gods's work. He sincerely believed. So how can anyone say he is NOT a Christian?
Is it what you do, or what you say? Is it the message Love GOD and love others as yourself", or is it profession?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Phat, posted 01-02-2005 5:23 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by TheLiteralist, posted 01-03-2005 9:00 AM jar has replied
 Message 230 by robinrohan, posted 01-03-2005 5:05 PM jar has replied
 Message 264 by Phat, posted 09-17-2016 3:17 PM jar has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 212 of 329 (173142)
01-02-2005 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by Phat
01-02-2005 5:23 PM


Re: What is actually necessary to be a Christian
I believe that it is impossible for someone to love totally and NOT be a Christian. Even that Buddhist! He will have to meet Jesus and will accept Him, in all probability!
why? would not jesus also have to meet gautama buddha and accept him? or mithra -- another predecessor of christianity that has the same MO?
this is a very narrow opinion based on no evidence and is just an article of faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Phat, posted 01-02-2005 5:23 PM Phat has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 213 of 329 (173143)
01-02-2005 7:00 PM


For TheLiteralist ... your question. expanded?
From http://EvC Forum: Rate of Genetic Change -->EvC Forum: Rate of Genetic Change
TheLiteralist writes:
This brings up an off-topic issue, "What makes a person or an organization Christian besides the person or organization making such a claim?"
I think that would be a particularly interesting topic as regards the Vatican, Nazis, KKK, etc.
I also have trouble with this whenever someone says that the USof(N)A is a christian nation founded by christians ...
as this is usually put forward by a born-again christian as a way of saying that it is their heritage, and yet at the time of the founding of this country the born-again movement was not in existence.
and then I get more confused when they say other people are NOT christians because of X, Y or Z (and those founding fathers that were christian qualify for the X, Y or Z as well) ...
it's a mess, imho, to assign belief to others, for at a very fundamental level there is no one religion, as each person will have a slightly different concept of their faith than everyone else.
enough for now.

  
Shaz
Inactive Member


Message 214 of 329 (173162)
01-02-2005 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Cold Foreign Object
05-24-2004 6:13 PM


Willowtree: This may not be relevant, as I have not read through the whole thread as yet, but I could not let this comment slip past.
Nobody can love their enemy,
I challenge you, to prove that 'I' am unable to do this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-24-2004 6:13 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by AdminAsgara, posted 01-02-2005 8:26 PM Shaz has replied

  
AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 215 of 329 (173163)
01-02-2005 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by Shaz
01-02-2005 8:22 PM


Hi Shaz,
Don't hold your breath waiting for an answer from WT. His debate style left a lot to be desired so he was sent to our bootcamp to learn. He took that as a badge of honor and has subsequently been banned.

AdminAsgara Queen of the Universe

http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Shaz, posted 01-02-2005 8:22 PM Shaz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by Shaz, posted 01-02-2005 10:18 PM AdminAsgara has not replied

  
Shaz
Inactive Member


Message 216 of 329 (173190)
01-02-2005 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by AdminAsgara
01-02-2005 8:26 PM


Thanks for the information Admin Asqara.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by AdminAsgara, posted 01-02-2005 8:26 PM AdminAsgara has not replied

  
Shaz
Inactive Member


Message 217 of 329 (173194)
01-02-2005 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by IrishRockhound
05-19-2004 8:21 AM


Hi IrishRockHound:
Christian according to the definition I have, is professing a belief in the Christ centred doctrine, and/or being a member of that group. On the other hand ‘true’, is an applied condition, and is subject to individual interpretation. What you hold to be true is not necessarily true for me, i.e. me - that vase is blue, colour blind person - that vase is green, interior decorator - that vase is aqua. Does that mean that any of these statements are not true, accurate, or without flaw?
Therefore use of the phrase ‘true Christian’ is subjective, and open to interpretation. (as is evident in these 200+ posts, I just waded through )
Taking into account also the literal term ‘Christian’, as it is applied. It is distinct from religion, but also of religion.
Religion: relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity.
Therefore Christianity is of the religious affiliation, but it is a separate belief system. This equally applies to all groups; though they belong to an affiliation they are not one and the same. Which may be why Christian’s shy away from the term religious. Particularly when the connotation is that they are affiliated with, i.e. Muslims, Freemasons, Hindus.
Subsequently in relation to the questions you initially, I offer the following.
  • What is actually necessary to be a true Christian?
  • Who gets to decide who is and who isn't, and how relevent is their opinion?
  • Anyone can determine that one is a Christian, if that is professed, and/or they are affiliated with a particular Christian organisation which upholds the basic Christian tenet. As for who gets to judge what is, a ‘true Christian’, then that is subject only to individual interpretation.
    Christians, who apply biblical standards to their lives, are not in a position to judge another, to do so would contravene a basic principle within the biblical tenet. Atheists, or anyone else, may apply their own interpretation, as to what is truth. To do so logically though, they would need full comprehension of what they are measuring. So they need biblical knowledge and an understanding of biblical truths, which of course are professed by Christian doctrine to come from a filling of the Holy Spirit? Doctrine of course which is subject to interpretations, so it is really a catch 22 situation. Christians are ‘damned if they do’, and atheists ‘damned well can’t’, unless they become filled with the Holy Spirit.
    (No offence or literal application intended, with the use of the word damned.)
    So in summation, according to the biblical tenet, it is only God who can judge, not just Christians but all of mankind. For atheists I believe it might equally hold that no-one can judge, the inner heart of man. The purpose and intent of your topic though, is one that deserves consideration. Therefore may I recommend rather than use the term ‘True Christian’, that the incongruity between the Christian and the doctrine professed, be simply stated factually.
    Shaz

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by IrishRockhound, posted 05-19-2004 8:21 AM IrishRockhound has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 218 by robinrohan, posted 01-02-2005 11:43 PM Shaz has replied

      
    robinrohan
    Inactive Member


    Message 218 of 329 (173208)
    01-02-2005 11:43 PM
    Reply to: Message 217 by Shaz
    01-02-2005 10:28 PM


    moved from another topic
    Hitler and Christianity:
    This is an excerpt from "Hitler: A Study in Tyranny" by Alan Bullock:
    "Hitler had been brought up as a Catholic and was impressed by the organization and power of the Church. For the Protestant clergy he felt only contempt: 'They are insignifiant little people, submissive as dogs . . . they have neither a religion they can take seriously nor a great position to defend like Rome.'
    It was 'the great position' of the Church he respected; toward its teaching he showed the sharpest hostility. In Hitler's eyes Christianity was a religion fit only for slaves; he detested its ethics in particular. Its teaching, he declared, was a rebellion against the natural law of selection by struggle and the survival of the fittest."
    Quote from Hitler: "Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure."
    "From political considerations he restrained his anti-clericalism, seeing clearly the dangers of strengthening the Church by persecution. Once the war was over, he promised himself, he would root out and destroy the influence of the Christian Churches . . ." (219)
    No, Hitler was not a Christian.
    This message has been edited by robinrohan, 01-02-2005 23:44 AM
    This message has been edited by robinrohan, 01-02-2005 23:45 AM

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 217 by Shaz, posted 01-02-2005 10:28 PM Shaz has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 219 by Shaz, posted 01-02-2005 11:54 PM robinrohan has replied
     Message 221 by robinrohan, posted 01-03-2005 12:40 AM robinrohan has not replied

      
    Shaz
    Inactive Member


    Message 219 of 329 (173209)
    01-02-2005 11:54 PM
    Reply to: Message 218 by robinrohan
    01-02-2005 11:43 PM


    Re: moved from another topic
    Um Robinrohan;
    I am a bit lost as to what Hitler has to do with my post, I certainly didn't mention him at all. I also don't see how he ties, in to anything specific with what I said. Is there some point I am missing here?
    Shaz

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 218 by robinrohan, posted 01-02-2005 11:43 PM robinrohan has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 220 by robinrohan, posted 01-03-2005 12:20 AM Shaz has not replied

      
    robinrohan
    Inactive Member


    Message 220 of 329 (173219)
    01-03-2005 12:20 AM
    Reply to: Message 219 by Shaz
    01-02-2005 11:54 PM


    Re: moved from another topic
    Sorry, shaz. It had nothing to do with your post. I don't think the "general reply" button is working. I was talking to somebody else on another thread and it was suggested the discussion should be moved here.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 219 by Shaz, posted 01-02-2005 11:54 PM Shaz has not replied

      
    robinrohan
    Inactive Member


    Message 221 of 329 (173224)
    01-03-2005 12:40 AM
    Reply to: Message 218 by robinrohan
    01-02-2005 11:43 PM


    Re: moved from another topic
    However, you might make a case for Hitler believing in a sort of "life force" idea. He certainly seemed to think that he was a man on a historical mission which was associated with "blood" (race).
    He was certainly a "Darwinian" in the crude sense of the word.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 218 by robinrohan, posted 01-02-2005 11:43 PM robinrohan has not replied

      
    AdminPhat
    Inactive Member


    Message 222 of 329 (173327)
    01-03-2005 7:35 AM


    Checking general reply button...

      
    RAZD
    Member (Idle past 1405 days)
    Posts: 20714
    From: the other end of the sidewalk
    Joined: 03-14-2004


    Message 223 of 329 (173360)
    01-03-2005 8:59 AM


    take it here from "evolutionary advantage" thread
    this is the topic to post those arguments on.

      
    TheLiteralist
    Inactive Member


    Message 224 of 329 (173362)
    01-03-2005 9:00 AM
    Reply to: Message 211 by jar
    01-02-2005 5:59 PM


    Re: What is actually necessary to be a Christian
    Jar,
    Now in thread after thread here ay EvC I have said the Salvation was determined by behavior while many here have said that it is belief (specifically a belief in Jesus and Christian Dogma).
    I contend that it depends upon BOTH belief and behavior.
    SOME VERSES SHOWING BELIEF IS REQUIRED

    John 3:16
    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


    Mark 16:16
    He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


    Matthew 10:32-33
    32Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. 33But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.


    John 8:24
    I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

    SOME VERSES SHOWING PROPER BEHAVIOR IS REQUIRED

    Matthew 16:27
    For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.


    Galatians 5:19-21
    19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


    John 14:15
    If ye love me, keep my commandments.


    Matthew 19:16-17
    16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
    A VERSE SHOWING BOTH ARE REQUIRED

    James 2:24 & 26
    24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only...26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
    BTW, I could easily see Hitler using religious and patriotic images to persuade the religious and the patriotic to his view...IOW, Mein Kampf could be propaganda as opposed to honest self-evaluations.
    Peter warns that:
    2 Peter 2:1-3
    1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.3And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
    People of the Christian faith can be easily led astray if they are not careful.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 211 by jar, posted 01-02-2005 5:59 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 229 by jar, posted 01-03-2005 11:41 AM TheLiteralist has not replied

      
    TheLiteralist
    Inactive Member


    Message 225 of 329 (173374)
    01-03-2005 9:20 AM
    Reply to: Message 3 by IrishRockhound
    05-22-2004 9:31 AM


    A definition of sorts?
    Hi IRH,
    I, too, desire a practical definition of a True Christian that people on both sides may use with confidence. I don't know if one is possible, but I hope one is.
    I suggest that a true Christian will
    • Believe that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh (i.e., the Son of God)
    • Will be willing to confess that belief to others to some degree
    • Will believe that the Bible (both testaments) is infallible
    • Will keep Jesus's commandments and many of the Old Testament commandments, especially the Ten Commandments
    • Will adhere to any teachings or commandments of the apostles as recorded in the New Testament
    • Will not mindlessly follow everything that calls itself Christian
    I don't think that's complete, but it's a good start. Examination of this definition is invited by all concerned.
    {added by edit}
    I suppose I mean there should at least be a substantial effort to obey commandments...I do not mean that the Christian will never once succumb to temptation.
    This message has been edited by TheLiteralist, 01-03-2005 09:29 AM

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 3 by IrishRockhound, posted 05-22-2004 9:31 AM IrishRockhound has not replied

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