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Author Topic:   Who can be saved? A Christian perspective
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 226 of 466 (176038)
01-11-2005 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by jar
01-11-2005 5:12 PM


Re: Holy Spirit
The answer is, "Who cares?"
Well I do not want to speak for God, but I know how I would feel if I sent my only son to the world to die for everyones sins, in the very word I created, and there was a bunch of people running around not even believing in me.
It is the action, doing what is right. If you only do what is right because you were told to do it, or for some reward, then the whole point of Jesus message is lost.
No, Jesus revealed the ways of the father. The ways are to love one another, the way we love our selves. The principal there is to do what the father wants us to do, why? Because thats the way he created us to get along. It is the perfect setting for us to live in, and would bring peace and unity in the world. It is what all us desire deep down in our uncluttered hearts. We do it because we know its right, not just because the father says so.
But more importantly than that is to Love God with all your heart, mind and soul. So not believing in him hardly fits that description.
In case you think that all of our collective spirits=God, and he could not exist without us, that is wrong. we are only a representation of him, an image.
I think your biggest problem is that you are taking that small section of the bible and using it as an end all to describe the way we get saved.
Wherever you look in the Bible, whether it is John or Mark or Matthew, when you read the whole thing, time after time it comes back to what you do. It is not what you say, not what you profess that determines if you love GOD, it's what you do.
If we do it for the sake of goodness, and not in the name of God, we are not loving God. god will also tell us his purpose for us. He created us for a purpose, if go around doing whatever it is we want, even if it is good, it is not loving God. Loving God is being obedient to him.
Its your faith that determines if you love God. If you have true faith you will do the will of the father, and God will see that. If you do not believe in him, you do not have faith.
And how do you love GOD? Not through professing. Not through declaration. You show your love of GOD through acts, behavior.
And believing in him, just as I believe in my sons.
Totally immaterial. You have not yet shown how that is related to the topic in anyway.
The Holy Spirit coming into your life is God's gracious blessing on you when you show how true your faith is to him. When you believe in him, you get it.
If you just run around doing good works, you do not get blessed with the Holy Spirit, unless you believe in him, and do it for him. We do it not because he told us to, but because we love the father. I love the one who created me, I thank him for giving me life, my wife, my children, this forum, and you jar.
If you deny him, then you deny that he created you, and you could not love him, no matter how many good works you do. This is the root of the matter.
If it's the same thing, it's the same thing.
No, its like the same thing, it is not the same thing. It would be easy to take care of Jesus if you saw him, and knew he was the son of God. It's harder to take care of people who you do not know. Thats part of the reason why we do greater works than him. It means nothing to him, unless you do it out of love for God. Your love for God, makes you love others as yourself, its an unselfish act, and has little to do with going to hell or not. Once the Father speaks to you through his Holy Spirit, you don't worry about anything anymore, unless you let the enemy get to you.
please show where in there profession or belief is mentioned?
Please show where he explicitly says we do not need faith. Show me one part of the bible were it says that clearly. The rest of the bible seems to say that we need faith. Why all of a sudden we do not need it anymore?
One general note: The NIV plays pretty loose with the scriptures and adds a whole bunch of commentary to color the interpretation. I don't take it very seriously. It's more the Readers Digest version of the translations.
I wasn't to happy that my translation didn't match the NIV's but this is the first time I noticed that. The word is the word, and the translation is not the word of God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by jar, posted 01-11-2005 5:12 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by jar, posted 01-11-2005 10:52 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 227 of 466 (176042)
01-11-2005 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by wmscott
01-11-2005 5:06 PM


Re: We have to worship God in the way he wants, not the way we want.
Hello and God Bless wmscott.
Way to preach the Jehovah message.
Not everyone is wrong, and Jehovah's might just not be right either.
That whole reply seems to be entirely judgemental on other religions, hardly a way to love one another.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by wmscott, posted 01-11-2005 5:06 PM wmscott has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 228 of 466 (176048)
01-11-2005 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by riVeRraT
01-11-2005 10:36 PM


Re: Holy Spirit
Please show where he explicitly says we do not need faith. Show me one part of the bible were it says that clearly. The rest of the bible seems to say that we need faith. Why all of a sudden we do not need it anymore?
Pointless. Again, if you keep reading, all the sections you have brought up talking about faith or love go on to explain HOW you show love. And it is through actions, through works.
If you look at the list in Matthew 25:31-46, Jesus is very clear about what he hopes folk will do. It would have been easy for him to add "Oh, and you have to believe in me", but he didn't. There is no need for him to specifically exclude it.
No, its like the same thing, it is not the same thing.
LOL, Yeah, right. That's precious.
Well I do not want to speak for God, but I know how I would feel if I sent my only son to the world to die for everyones sins, in the very word I created, and there was a bunch of people running around not even believing in me.
Well, I've covered this many, many times so I gues one more time won't hurt.
You're GOD sounds more like a bling-bling pimp daddy selling crack on the corner, one that gets upset if someone disrespects him. I can't imagine such a picayune diety.
Suppose you found out that an aoemba denied you existed?
The Holy Spirit coming into your life is God's gracious blessing on you when you show how true your faith is to him. When you believe in him, you get it.
Fine, still, what does that have to do with this thread?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by riVeRraT, posted 01-11-2005 10:36 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by riVeRraT, posted 01-12-2005 8:17 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 229 of 466 (176087)
01-12-2005 2:39 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by jar
01-10-2005 7:53 AM


Who can be lost?
Hi, Jar. I must say that I DO respect your view on salvation. as you know, I might only add that anyone who cheerfully does good works will receive Jesus. I don't know what all the fuss is about.
Perhaps another way to look at the logic of this thread is to flip (invert) the logic. In other words, who can be lost? Or...who IS lost?
1) People who don't know any better are excluded from the "lost" list.
2) Those of other faiths who are cheerfully doing good works with a joyful heart may be technically lost in a legalistic sense, but I believe that Jesus gives them a chance. They would, of course, accept Him.
3) This leaves the Pharisee mindset. The legalists who judge others.
It is THEY who appear to be in trouble of "losing" the gift of life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by jar, posted 01-10-2005 7:53 AM jar has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 230 of 466 (176161)
01-12-2005 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by jar
01-11-2005 10:52 PM


Re: Holy Spirit
Pointless. Again, if you keep reading, all the sections you have brought up talking about faith or love go on to explain HOW you show love. And it is through actions, through works.
Yes that is the second most important thing. The first thing is to Love God.
If you look at the list in Matthew 25:31-46, Jesus is very clear about what he hopes folk will do. It would have been easy for him to add "Oh, and you have to believe in me", but he didn't. There is no need for him to specifically exclude it.
If you are so concerned about what Jesus would have us do, then you would put Love the Father at the top of the list.
That whole sermon on the Mount of Olives was about what will happen in the end times. It wasn't about who was Lord God, or why you should Love him. That was already widely accepted, and there was no need to point that out at that time. Can you imagine if Jesus would have said, yea, just go out and Love each other, doens't even matter if you believe in my Father or not.
Also, to put God first is the most important thing. Our love for him must exceed the love we have for each other. Of course we should love the one who created us greater than the creations. We should love the one who gives us life, and can take it away.
In Genesis 22 Abraham was put to the ultimate test. God asked him to sacrafice his son for God. This was a test to see if his love for God was greater than his love for anything else. Do you think he would have passed that test if he denyed the existance of God? If loving God isn't important or part of the word of God, then why did God do that to him?
LOL, Yeah, right. That's precious.
Like:
1 a : the same or nearly the same (as in appearance, character, or quantity) -- formerly used with as, unto, of b chiefly British : closely resembling the subject or original
Did I use the word wrong?
Suppose you found out that an aoemba denied you existed?
If I created the amoeba so that I could enjoy being with it, love it, give it free will, and then spend the rest of eternity with it, and it didn't acknowledge me, yea I'd be pissed at it.
I don't know what you do for a living, but if I make something to perform a task, and it doesn't work, I either redo it, or throw it out.
If you buy a puppy dog, and raise it and train it. Then you take it to the park and throw a stick for it to return, and the dog runs off into the woods, what do you do? Most likely you get a little pissed and go chase after the dog, then scold it. If he keeps doing it surely it doesn't make you happier. Eventually if he never listens and is a bad dog, you might just get rid of it.
We were created in his image, it is very easy to understand why God is a "pimp daddy" amoung other things. All we have to do is look at ourselves and we can understand God.
The Holy Spirit coming into your life is God's gracious blessing on you when you show how true your faith is to him. When you believe in him, you get it.
Fine, still, what does that have to do with this thread?
Well I'm not sure if you are saved unless you experience this. So I was wondering you have had that gracious experience. Why can't you just answer that question, who cares if it has nothing to do with this thread. Maybe I want to pray for you to have that experience, maybe I am praying for you already.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by jar, posted 01-11-2005 10:52 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by jar, posted 01-12-2005 10:36 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 231 of 466 (176166)
01-12-2005 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by jar
09-11-2004 4:31 PM


Loving God
So the question is, "Do you have to acknowledge GOD or even believe in GOD to Love GOD?"
Love God with all your heart, first commandment. What happens if you break a commandment? You get saved?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 09-11-2004 4:31 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by ohnhai, posted 01-12-2005 9:02 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
ohnhai
Member (Idle past 5162 days)
Posts: 649
From: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2004


Message 232 of 466 (176185)
01-12-2005 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 231 by riVeRraT
01-12-2005 8:34 AM


Re: Loving God
Thought the first commandment was some thing to do with I am you lord god Jehovah, I am the one true god ? or something like that?
So there are two first commandments? Interesting..
--Edit-- fixed a copy and paste error --
This message has been edited by ohnhai, 01-12-2005 09:03 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by riVeRraT, posted 01-12-2005 8:34 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by riVeRraT, posted 01-12-2005 12:52 PM ohnhai has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 233 of 466 (176213)
01-12-2005 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by riVeRraT
01-12-2005 8:17 AM


Re: Holy Spirit
If you are so concerned about what Jesus would have us do, then you would put Love the Father at the top of the list.
If you read anything I write you will find that I always include Love GOD. But how do you love GOD? Is it by profession? Not according to the Bible. The way you love GOD is by your actions, how you behave.
Again, read Matthew 25:31-46. I keep going back to this because it is one of the clearest, most complete expositions on the subject. The sheep are surprised because they never realized that they were doing things for Jesus when they did things for others. Even if they had not known about Jesus, those actions would have been loving him.
Let me ask you a question. Have you read the Narnia series?
We were created in his image, it is very easy to understand why God is a "pimp daddy" amoung other things. All we have to do is look at ourselves and we can understand God.
No! Wrong! It is a coomon mistake though. That is making GOD in our image.
Well I'm not sure if you are saved unless you experience this. So I was wondering you have had that gracious experience. Why can't you just answer that question, who cares if it has nothing to do with this thread. Maybe I want to pray for you to have that experience, maybe I am praying for you already.
Well, in addition to being off topic it's none of your business.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by riVeRraT, posted 01-12-2005 8:17 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by riVeRraT, posted 01-12-2005 2:19 PM jar has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 234 of 466 (176257)
01-12-2005 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by ohnhai
01-12-2005 9:02 AM


Re: Loving God
They asked Jesus the 2 greatest commandments.
He responded:
Mark 12
29The most important one, answered Jesus, is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’(f) 31The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[g]There is no commandment greater than these.
changed [f] to (f), seems the bracket f was causing some formating issues - The Queen
This message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 01-12-2005 22:03 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by ohnhai, posted 01-12-2005 9:02 AM ohnhai has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 235 of 466 (176275)
01-12-2005 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by jar
01-12-2005 10:36 AM


Re: Holy Spirit
The sheep are surprised because they never realized that they were doing things for Jesus when they did things for others. Even if they had not known about Jesus, those actions would have been loving him.
Yes, I agree with that. I have always felt that in my heart. That is the most important thing in life, next to loving God. It's ok if you don't know about God, because of whatever reasons. We get the short end of the stick alot of the time. It's my hope that God would see that and judge us accordingly. But does that get us saved?
He was talking to a bunch of people who already believed in God, and loved God. Thats why the Jews have a second chance, because of their love for God. Maybe thats why we get saved if we help the Jews, we get part of that second chance. Maybe thats what the NIV was talking about.
Matthew 10:32-33 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
32Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. 33But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.
Explain how this verse ties into you thinking that you can deny God and be saved.
Matthew 10:37-39 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
37Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
How can you love love? More than your own parents?
What your trying to say is that Jesus is love, and if we love love, and love others, that gets us saved.
Well God is love, perfect love. How can we understand perfect love without acknowledging the father. Without the conviction of the Holy Spirit, we do not know or understand love, true love. You think that going around feeding people, and bringing them into your house is enough?
If we don't love ourselves the way God would have us love ourselves, how then can we give perfect love to others?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by jar, posted 01-12-2005 10:36 AM jar has not replied

  
Terry48420
Inactive Member


Message 236 of 466 (182887)
02-03-2005 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
09-11-2004 11:22 AM


IMHO, as a Christian, anyone can be saved whether or not they acknowledge or profess a belief in Jesus or even GOD. In fact, even if they deny the existence of GOD they can and will likely be saved.
How can you ignore passages like Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned
This passage clearly states that nonbelievers are damned.

Ps 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jar, posted 09-11-2004 11:22 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by jar, posted 02-03-2005 1:52 PM Terry48420 has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 237 of 466 (182897)
02-03-2005 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by Terry48420
02-03-2005 12:49 PM


How can you ignore passages like Mark 16:16
The same way I handle the next two lines.
17: And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18: They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Do you believe that if you don't play with poisonous snakes and drink lye you're not a believer?
Look at the rest of the Bible. If you've read this thread you will have seen my reasoning. Basically, throughout the Bible Jesus explains time after time that it is not your professions that determine belief but what you do. Actions speak louder than words.
Read the passages I've included throughout this thread. I think you'll find that the Bible supports my position, not yours.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Terry48420, posted 02-03-2005 12:49 PM Terry48420 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by Terry48420, posted 02-03-2005 3:23 PM jar has replied

  
Terry48420
Inactive Member


Message 238 of 466 (182910)
02-03-2005 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by jar
02-03-2005 1:52 PM


Reply to jar
Basically, throughout the Bible Jesus explains time after time that it is not your professions that determine belief but what you do.
This is true...Faith without works is dead according to James. However, you are still overlooking key verses in the Bible.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Eph 2:8-10
We are to do good works because of our faith in God and because we are saved, not to be saved.
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Heb 11:6
Clearly we can not please God without faith.

Ps 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by jar, posted 02-03-2005 1:52 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by jar, posted 02-03-2005 4:29 PM Terry48420 has replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 239 of 466 (182915)
02-03-2005 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by wmscott
01-11-2005 5:06 PM


Re: We have to worship God in the way he wants, not the way we want.
Well, it's obvious Paul was wrong too. It's all more of the same religion created by people.
God doesn't speak Hebrew, or English. These words you love are by humans for humans. They are abstractions and not truth. The truth is beyond language and concept and in the reality of being. The Truth is What Is, not what we think about what is. But you and the other religionists will quibble and quarrel over these utterances and pronouncements each feeling themselves to be right and the other wrong. This may be God's sense of humor, or it may be his suffering, or both. It's all instrumental, relative. Languages have a word for absolute but that is just a sound or a symbol in a relative system. What Is is pointing beyond language to being. Call it absolute, call it what you will, but it is beyond names.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by wmscott, posted 01-11-2005 5:06 PM wmscott has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 240 of 466 (182921)
02-03-2005 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by Terry48420
02-03-2005 3:23 PM


Re: Reply to jar
But the gift of forgiveness was freely given. Christ died for all mankind, not for believers, not for Christians. Paul in Ephesians and in other places re-enforces and the quote you picked is one I often use. It is saying that the intent of works is as important as the works themselves.
The section of Hebrews you quoted was yet another letter to a specific audience. It is not a broad proclamation or gospel. It's was written to a known community of Christians being lead by Timothy. You must take it as a communication between members of a sect.
On the otherhand, if you look at the oft quoted passages from Matthew 25:31-46 you see no mention of belief. In fact it is implicit in that section that many who do believe will not be among the saved.
Christ died for all mankind, believer and unbeliever.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Terry48420, posted 02-03-2005 3:23 PM Terry48420 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by Terry48420, posted 02-03-2005 5:38 PM jar has replied

  
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