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Author Topic:   Falsifying a young Universe. (re: Supernova 1987A)
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 211 of 948 (179416)
01-21-2005 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by simple
01-21-2005 5:29 PM


Re: chose your ruler
Well, admitting violations occur, but that we just can't yet detect them, maybe. Why not admit the same about a spirit dimension?
'Cause there's no evidence for it.

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 Message 209 by simple, posted 01-21-2005 5:29 PM simple has not replied

  
simple 
Inactive Member


Message 212 of 948 (179418)
01-21-2005 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by Loudmouth
01-21-2005 5:16 PM


the great final test
quote:
We can say that no one can has seen spirits with supporting objective evidence. We can say that no one has seen spirits change the speed of light. If spirits are evidence, can you please tell me the experimental methods for detecting them so I can do it in the lab?
Well. I can't really cut loose here and present much of an arguement, because I can detect Percy is already 'on the scent', and getting miffed at extra dimensional discourse that he determines detrimental to a desired discussion, and that doesn't dismiss definitely, a designer who decided to dissapear from our detection!
Anyhow, christians have supporting evidence, and eyewitnesses of spirits. It is amazing how science has gotten away with pretending there wasn't for so long. Now, about spirit light, and dimensions- can we not boil down this whole thing to the following simple challenge.
If evidence for spirits, or supernatural, or God, or miracles can in any way be proved, then the arguement is lost for your side? If any spirits can exist, we'd have to admit the Great Spirit as well, no? And then, except for little things we see or detect that do not contradict anything spiritual, we could then factor it in as evidence.
OK then it all hinges on no one in human history, or present, or future actually experiencing anything supernatural, and having some evidence. Hmm, getting a little nervous?

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Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by CK, posted 01-21-2005 5:52 PM simple has replied
 Message 214 by MangyTiger, posted 01-21-2005 6:06 PM simple has replied
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CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


(1)
Message 213 of 948 (179419)
01-21-2005 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by simple
01-21-2005 5:50 PM


Re: the great final test
quote:
It is amazing how science has gotten away with pretending there wasn't for so long.
Start a thread and back this BS up - you just make this stuff up as you go along.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by simple, posted 01-21-2005 5:50 PM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by simple, posted 01-21-2005 6:41 PM CK has replied

  
MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6353 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 214 of 948 (179424)
01-21-2005 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by simple
01-21-2005 5:50 PM


Re: the great final test
If any spirits can exist, we'd have to admit the Great Spirit as well, no?
I don't follow the reason for the leap from a specific spirit existing to the Great Spirit existing ? More specifically why your particular chosen one ?

Confused ? You will be...

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 Message 212 by simple, posted 01-21-2005 5:50 PM simple has replied

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pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6022 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


(1)
Message 215 of 948 (179426)
01-21-2005 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by simple
01-21-2005 5:50 PM


Re: the great final test
OK then it all hinges on no one in human history, or present, or future actually experiencing anything supernatural, and having some evidence. Hmm, getting a little nervous?
Hmm, not really. I second Charles' motion - start a new thread, perhaps with a title like "Evidence of the Supernatural", and back up your ramblings. Or are you too "nervous"?

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simple 
Inactive Member


Message 216 of 948 (179435)
01-21-2005 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by CK
01-21-2005 5:52 PM


Re: the great final test
Do you think science has acknowledged, rather than ignored such potential evidences, then? I don't think so, it's usually shunned as bs, to use your word. If we try to 'fit the bill' with it, it's bs. So, if it can be proved there is some super natural, then it will have to become the 'Best Solution', and contrary scientific opinion be relegated to 'Belittling Spiritual'.

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 Message 213 by CK, posted 01-21-2005 5:52 PM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by CK, posted 01-21-2005 6:55 PM simple has replied
 Message 223 by RAZD, posted 01-22-2005 3:34 PM simple has replied

  
simple 
Inactive Member


Message 217 of 948 (179437)
01-21-2005 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by MangyTiger
01-21-2005 6:06 PM


Re: the great final test
quote:
I don't follow the reason for the leap from a specific spirit existing to the Great Spirit existing ?
Well if spirits exist then they exist. So we can't turn around and badmouth a dimension for them, and some light! And such light, or such spitits could not be expected to go only as fast as ours do. Therefore we would need another ruler of measurement. Also if there, then are spirits, one would expect they could make a universe as much as someone claimed here on this thread that it theoretically could be done by a man in a lab! Now, I suppose, for now, we don't have to leap to the Great creating Spirit, just to One being scientifically possible, with our new spirit accepting, improved science.

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 Message 214 by MangyTiger, posted 01-21-2005 6:06 PM MangyTiger has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 218 of 948 (179439)
01-21-2005 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by simple
01-21-2005 6:41 PM


Re: the great final test
You want to back your nonsense - you start a thread on it.
It has no place in this discussion.
Have you not got the hand of how things are done here? Our debates are very specific things - your causes is not helped by throwing out random nonsense and expecting that people will go "gee we must have all been wrong".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by simple, posted 01-21-2005 6:41 PM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by simple, posted 01-21-2005 7:17 PM CK has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 219 of 948 (179441)
01-21-2005 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by cmanteuf
01-21-2005 4:33 PM


Re: chose your ruler
cmanteuf writes:
I recall reading, approximately a decade ago, about some people who theorized that "neutrino stars" could be the source of the supermassive gravitional fields at the center of galaxies[1]. I assume since I haven't heard much since then about this that there was a flaw in this theory, some observations that could not be properly explained. In other words, the normal progress of science, removing ideas that don't fit the observed evidence. But Google confirms that some people were serious about such things for a time.
I think the Google hits you found for "neutrino stars" may not be referring to actual stars composed of neutrinos, which wouldn't be expected, but are stars which have gone through a stage that produces many neutrinos. There wasn't much explanatory out there, but I did find this at http://www.phys.hawaii.edu/~jgl/nuosc_story.html:
"Neutrinos also play important roles in astrophysical events such as supernovae, which occurs when an old massive star collapses after running out of nuclear fuel. During the collapse the star literally becomes a neutrino star in that neutrinos totally dominate in numbers of particles for a few seconds, and carry off most of the energy from the implosion, more energy than radiated during the entire life of the star."
But maybe there's more to it than that. Anyone know?
--Percy

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simple 
Inactive Member


Message 220 of 948 (179444)
01-21-2005 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by CK
01-21-2005 6:55 PM


Re: the great final test
quote:
Our debates are very specific
No. I wasn't proposing we do the great test on this thread. Simply, since some discussion of rulers, or methods of time measurement were touched on here, that the tossing out of spirits, would not be possible if some instance of one were to be shown to exist. Then, when we project our theories out into the wild blue yonder, we would have to include the new evidence as part of our knowledge .

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Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 221 of 948 (179448)
01-21-2005 7:25 PM


Temporarily closing this thread while certain participants consider whether they can stay on topic.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 222 of 948 (179603)
01-22-2005 9:38 AM


Topic Reopened
Please stay on topic. Move off-topic discussions to appropriate existing threads, or propose a new topic.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 223 of 948 (179695)
01-22-2005 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by simple
01-21-2005 6:41 PM


Re: the great final test .... of the question.
parapsychology.
started in the 1950's
backed by the US military among other "interested parties"
lots of testing
no results.
Now, lets get back to the issue of the supernovae and the concept of a young universe and whether (a) they can be reconciled or (b) one has to give way to the other, and if (b) then (c) which one gets the nod and which the dustbin?
So far the evidence is on an old, 13.5 billion year plus, age universe.
This message has been edited by RAZD, 01-22-2005 15:39 AM

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by simple, posted 01-21-2005 6:41 PM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
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simple 
Inactive Member


Message 224 of 948 (179703)
01-22-2005 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by RAZD
01-22-2005 3:34 PM


test to crow about
It would seem they cannot be reconciled if we look at our light as the only ruler. That was why I proposed another solution, and a test to see if it could be admitted. It was ruled out, I think. So, we have, for our veiwing pleasure then, only the 'black crows', as far as science, decides to allow. I won't try to argue our light has changed. For that approach, I guess you need one of these guys like who wrote 'starlight and time', and won't get extra dimensional on you. That's fine, I think my point was made.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by RAZD, posted 01-22-2005 3:34 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by JonF, posted 01-22-2005 4:30 PM simple has not replied
 Message 226 by RAZD, posted 01-22-2005 4:32 PM simple has replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 225 of 948 (179706)
01-22-2005 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by simple
01-22-2005 4:18 PM


Re: test to crow about
Oh, you made a point, alright.

This message is a reply to:
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