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Author Topic:   Who can be saved? A Christian perspective
Terry48420
Inactive Member


Message 241 of 466 (182930)
02-03-2005 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by jar
02-03-2005 4:29 PM


Re: Reply to jar
It is not a broad proclamation or gospel
You can not deny Jesus' own words in John 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Faith in Jesus is required to be saved. This is not a works based religion my friend.

Ps 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by jar, posted 02-03-2005 4:29 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by jar, posted 02-03-2005 6:21 PM Terry48420 has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 242 of 466 (182933)
02-03-2005 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by Terry48420
02-03-2005 5:38 PM


Re: Reply to jar
Read the rest. You folk always try to cherry pick the passages without looking at the context.
John 3:19-21
19: And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20: For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21: But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Here it once again returns to the actions as opposed to the professions. As my old momma used to say, "Actions speak louder than words."
In addition, the condemnation in John 3:18 is explained fully in the next few lines. It is not a condemnation to hell or anything of the sort. Rather it is yet another affirmation of the constant theme of Jesus that you will be judged on what you do, not what you say.
No, it's not atheists that need to worry about salvation (of course they don't anyway) but rather Christians. It's the believers that will be spending their time in Hell, not the non-believers. It's folk like Jerry Falwell, Gene Scott, Pat Robertson, Oral Roberts, Jim Bakker, Benny Hinn, Fred Phelps, Jimmy Swaggart, Bob Larson, Bobby Tilton and Paul Crouch that will be lined up with the goats while the atheists walk in the front door.
Oh I believe Jesus words. Too bad so many Christians don't read them.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Terry48420, posted 02-03-2005 5:38 PM Terry48420 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by Terry48420, posted 02-04-2005 8:41 AM jar has replied
 Message 263 by Phat, posted 02-19-2005 10:58 AM jar has not replied

  
Terry48420
Inactive Member


Message 243 of 466 (183045)
02-04-2005 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by jar
02-03-2005 6:21 PM


Re: Reply to jar
John 3:21: But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
He that doeth truth cometh to the light...the light of the world is Jesus. You have to come to Jesus. Our works are like filthy rags until we are in Christ because there is sin in our life.
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God;
John 3:36: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
II Thessalonians 1:7-9 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengaence on them that know not God and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everalting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.
Clearly you must know God and obey the gospel to be saved. An atheist can not be saved because he claims there is no God. How can he know him or obey the gospel.
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Clearly faith and repentance are required.

Ps 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by jar, posted 02-03-2005 6:21 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by jar, posted 02-04-2005 8:55 AM Terry48420 has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 244 of 466 (183050)
02-04-2005 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by Terry48420
02-04-2005 8:41 AM


Re: Reply to jar
We can sit and quotemine the Bible 'till the cows come home. You know that any possible point of view can be supported simply by picking verses from the Bible selectively. I can sit here and ask you how you ignore Matthew 25 which is without a doubt the definitive passage on what will happen re salvation and from Jesus himself, but that will achieve little.
But let's stop and backup for a second.
Why would GOD care if you believed in him?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Terry48420, posted 02-04-2005 8:41 AM Terry48420 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Terry48420, posted 02-04-2005 12:09 PM jar has not replied
 Message 252 by Phat, posted 02-17-2005 6:06 PM jar has not replied

  
Terry48420
Inactive Member


Message 245 of 466 (183083)
02-04-2005 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by jar
02-04-2005 8:55 AM


Re: Reply to jar
Why would GOD care if you believed in him?
I'm not really qualified to speak for God, but faith and belief are found hundreds of times in the Bible. Therefore it must be important.

Ps 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by jar, posted 02-04-2005 8:55 AM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by robinrohan, posted 02-04-2005 5:34 PM Terry48420 has not replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 246 of 466 (183158)
02-04-2005 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Terry48420
02-04-2005 12:09 PM


Re: Reply to jar
Terry writes:
I'm not really qualified to speak for God, but faith and belief are found hundreds of times in the Bible. Therefore it must be important.
What matters is not so much what you believe but the integrity of your belief.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Terry48420, posted 02-04-2005 12:09 PM Terry48420 has not replied

  
wmscott
Member (Idle past 6247 days)
Posts: 580
From: Sussex, WI USA
Joined: 12-19-2001


Message 247 of 466 (184667)
02-11-2005 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by lfen
02-03-2005 3:49 PM


Re: We have to worship God in the way he wants, not the way we want.
Dear Ifen
Well, it's obvious Paul was wrong too. It's all more of the same religion created by people
Paul is wrong because he disagrees with you? What Paul wrote, he wrote under the guiding force of the holy spirit, which is why what he wrote, is today part of the inspired word of God. What he worte is also in harmony with the rest of the Bible, it is supported by other scriptures in other parts of the Bible. So the religion Paul wrote about wasn't created by him, it was created by God.
God doesn't speak Hebrew, or English.
You don't read the Bible much I gather. (Exodus 6:10) "Then Jehovah spoke to Moses, saying:" God is certainly capible of speaking clearly in any langauge he desires. The Bible is the written record of what he has said to mankind and what he inspired the Bible writers to write.
Jeremiah 36:1-2 "this word occurred to Jeremiah from Jehovah, saying: "Take for yourself a roll of a book, and you must write in it all the words that I have spoken to you against Israel and against Judah and against all the nations, since the day that I spoke to you, since the days of Josiah, clear down to this day."
These words you love are by humans for humans. They are abstractions and not truth.
2 Timothy 3:16 " All Scripture is inspired of God" The Bible was written by men under the power of the holy spirit, they wrote what God wanted them to write. (2 Samuel 23:2) "The spirit of Jehovah it was that spoke by me, And his word was upon my tongue." The Bible is the word of God and the word of God is truth. (John 17:17) "your word is truth."
religionists will quibble and quarrel over these utterances and pronouncements each feeling themselves to be right and the other wrong.
The reason for the quibbling is simple, most religions aren't following The Bible. The Bible itself predicted,(1 Timothy 4:1) "However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons," this has happened of course and is why there is so much quibbling. The way of finding out who is following the Bible and who is not, is to simply check what the Bible said on the matter. 2 Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight,"
Sincerely yours; Wm Scott Anderson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by lfen, posted 02-03-2005 3:49 PM lfen has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by MiguelG, posted 02-17-2005 12:20 AM wmscott has replied
 Message 256 by doctrbill, posted 02-18-2005 10:21 PM wmscott has not replied

  
MiguelG
Member (Idle past 1975 days)
Posts: 63
From: Australia
Joined: 12-08-2004


Message 248 of 466 (186050)
02-16-2005 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
09-11-2004 11:22 AM


I couldn't agree more...
....with Jar and frankly and more than a little pleased that there's another Christian out there who thinks in a similar way.
The central tenet of Christianity is Christ's teaching of love. We know this from Christ's unequivocal pronouncements in Matthew 22: 36-40 and from the illustrative example of His life and death.
Love isn't an exclusively Christian ideal either, it is idealised and seen as a laudable goal in many theisms & philosophies and its benefits preached about before and after the coming of Christ and independantly of Him.
To Christ what mattered was that selfless love be practiced by people - not just by 'Christians'.
Christ says in Matthew and elsewhere that:
None can come to the Father but through me.
I firmly believe that by this He was referring to the adoption of His teaching of selfless love, not that people had to worship Him.
After all Christ also says that to love one's fellow man is to love Him and the Father.
Anywho folks, that's just my little two cents worth.
Cheers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jar, posted 09-11-2004 11:22 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by jar, posted 02-17-2005 12:09 AM MiguelG has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 249 of 466 (186054)
02-17-2005 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by MiguelG
02-16-2005 11:53 PM


Re: I couldn't agree more...
Well, thank you sir. IMHO if more folk would concentrate on love and just do little things the world would be a much nicer place.
And it really is that simple.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by MiguelG, posted 02-16-2005 11:53 PM MiguelG has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by MiguelG, posted 02-17-2005 5:00 PM jar has not replied
 Message 253 by Delusion, posted 02-17-2005 10:15 PM jar has not replied
 Message 254 by Brian, posted 02-18-2005 7:20 PM jar has replied

  
MiguelG
Member (Idle past 1975 days)
Posts: 63
From: Australia
Joined: 12-08-2004


Message 250 of 466 (186059)
02-17-2005 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by wmscott
02-11-2005 9:57 PM


How to worship God?
Wmscott: 2 Timothy 3:16 " All Scripture is inspired of God" The Bible was written by men under the power of the holy spirit, they wrote what God wanted them to write.
So you're saying that God wanted people to write in Deuteronomy & Leviticus that it was ok to stone rape victims (from the city mind you), and stone disobedient children?
You're saying that the being who said:
Suffer the little children to come unto me, for of such is the Kingdom of Heaven
is the same being who is supposed to have slaughtered countless innocents in a global flood and at Som & Gommorrah etc.?
I'm afraid I don't agree.
I'll stick to what Christ himself said in Matthew 22: 37-40:
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Clearly, love is of paramount importance and all other scripture must be subordinate to and interpreted through these commandments.
Cheers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by wmscott, posted 02-11-2005 9:57 PM wmscott has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by wmscott, posted 02-19-2005 8:19 AM MiguelG has replied

  
MiguelG
Member (Idle past 1975 days)
Posts: 63
From: Australia
Joined: 12-08-2004


Message 251 of 466 (186302)
02-17-2005 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by jar
02-17-2005 12:09 AM


You're welcome Jar
Jar: And it really is that simple.
That's the problem isn't it?
I sometimes think that it's too simple and not 'exclusive' enough for many folks.
Sad indictment on the nature of humanity eh?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by jar, posted 02-17-2005 12:09 AM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 252 of 466 (186336)
02-17-2005 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by jar
02-04-2005 8:55 AM


Let me answer that
Jar writes:
We can sit and quotemine the Bible 'till the cows come home. You know that any possible point of view can be supported simply by picking verses from the Bible selectively. I can sit here and ask you how you ignore Matthew 25 which is without a doubt the definitive passage on what will happen re salvation and from Jesus himself, but that will achieve little.
We have talked of Matthew 25 before, and I agree with you that it reveals Gods heart. God revealed more of His overall truth to humanity throughout the years. As an example,
CL Stam writes:
It must be evident to the most casual reader of the Scriptures that a great change in God's dealings with man took place at the fall. Previous to that Adam and Eve had enjoyed unbroken fellowship with God, dwelling in blissful innocence in the beautiful garden of Eden.
But now all was changed. Sin had caused a separation from God. Adam and Eve were driven from the garden. A sense of blameworthiness overcame them which, from then on, was to play a large part in their actions. Ashamed, now, to appear before God as they were, they had to be clothed. Adam had to earn a living for himself and his family by hard toil and Eve was to bring forth children in sorrow. Worst of all, sin had entered into the world, and death by sin. All this, of course, involved a change in man's responsibilities to God and to others.
From this point on God's dealings with men changed again and again. Human Government was instituted after the flood, with Noah (Gen. 9:6), the dispensation of promise began with Abram (Gen. 12:1-3), "the law was given by Moses" (John 1:17), "grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" (John 1:17) and was dispensed by Paul, the chief of sinners, saved by grace (Eph. 3:1-3).
The foregoing are some of the most prominent dispensational changes to date, but these may be sub-divided and there are still others to come.
Thus, while the principles of God never change, His dispensations, His dealings with men, do change from time to time. This includes even the terms of acceptance with God. At first blood sacrifices were required (Gen. 4:3-5, Heb. 11:4); then, later, circumcision was added (Gen. 17:14); then obedience to the whole Mosaic law was demanded (Ex. 19:5, 6, Rom. 10:5); then "the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins" (Mark 1:4, Acts 2:38) and today it is
"TO HIM THAT WORKETH NOT, BUT BELIEVETH ON HIM THAT JUSTIFIETH THE UNGODLY; HIS FAITH IS COUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Rom. 4:5)
Now..this does not mean that we should not as Christians or even as good people attempt to follow Matthew 25. What it does mean is that Jesus was addressing Jewish believers who needed to perfectly follow the law in order to even have a shot at salvation. Jesus basically broke it down to them by saying, in effect, "Its not all about your religion or your interpretation of scripture. It is about loving...faith in action. Does this mean that Paul was wrong? No...because Paul was talking to unbeliving gentiles who knew nothing of the law. Paul was telling them that they did not need to work at religion but that they needed to have faith. For the Jews, perfect love validated their faith. For the Gentiles, perfect faith (In Christ) validated their love. Jesus was telling the Jews that even non-Jews would be sheep if they practiced love. This does not mean that these sheep did not know their shepherd, however. So it all ties together.
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 02-17-2005 16:09 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by jar, posted 02-04-2005 8:55 AM jar has not replied

  
Delusion
Inactive Member


Message 253 of 466 (186423)
02-17-2005 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by jar
02-17-2005 12:09 AM


Re: I couldn't agree more...
Don't you all understand what the fundamentalists are trying to say?
Obviously, God is love! Why even attempt to understand why eternal torment and damnation must be consistent with His love? He's God! He can do whatever He pleases![/sarcasm]
Although people like Jar attempt to shed some light of reason and common sense, most fundamentalists will always reject that, call it "persecution", and feel good about themselves at the end of the day. They enjoy the idea that they are God's "chosen" people and will inherit a mansion in heaven while anyone who does not accept their dogma are deemed "heathens" and will burn forever.
They ignore the fact that Jesus said "Forgive them Father, for they do not know what they do." They dismiss the fact that Jesus also holds his followers to the standard of loving your enemies; so God tormenting His enemies for eternity would be hypocritical at best.
Most fundamentalists have abandoned reason and intellectual analysis. Sadly, they feel like they are doing God's work in doing so.
My heart goes out to them, for I have been there myself. Unfortunately, not many grow out of it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by jar, posted 02-17-2005 12:09 AM jar has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 254 of 466 (186631)
02-18-2005 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by jar
02-17-2005 12:09 AM


Re: I couldn't agree more...
Hi Jar,
IMHO if more folk would concentrate on love and just do little things the world would be a much nicer place.
But you do not need to be a Christian to do this, so we do not need to hook this solely to Christianity.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by jar, posted 02-17-2005 12:09 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by jar, posted 02-18-2005 7:41 PM Brian has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 255 of 466 (186634)
02-18-2005 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by Brian
02-18-2005 7:20 PM


Re: I couldn't agree more...
I don't.
AbE:
However, IMHO that is all that Jesus ever asked folk to do. So in that sense, I would say it is the essence of Christianity.
This message has been edited by jar, 02-18-2005 18:43 AM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Brian, posted 02-18-2005 7:20 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by Brian, posted 02-19-2005 6:13 AM jar has replied

  
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