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Author | Topic: What happens after death for an atheist? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Nighttrain Member (Idle past 3994 days) Posts: 1512 From: brisbane,australia Joined: |
Dunno about Beatific Vision, but I,`ve had a number of experiences in my life. Moments of exceptional clarity. I recall being a trifle chilly, but otherwise it was memorable. I had a different vision of myself and the world and set out on a different path afterwards. During the experience, I never met God, heard any voices or a heavenly choir, had no visions of apocalyptic events, just like an overview of existence from another angle. Does this count?
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I recall being a trifle chilly, but otherwise it was memorable. Well, many are cold but few are frozen. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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lfen Member (Idle past 4678 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
consciousness is the character and the body is the actor Gary, I have it the other way round sort of. Consciousness is the actor. The "stuff that dreams are made on". In identifying with the contents of the mind, the neurological experience of the organism, it experiences itself as an individual, the character. The beatific vision happens when it senses briefly the actual situation but returns to its fixation or hypnosis of being an self separate from the universe. Everything is an object except pure subjectivity of consciousness that is aware of the shifting sensory and mental contents/objects. This is a religious viewpoint from Buddhism and Advaita Vedanta. At present there is no scientific proof. I think the current research trying to account for consciousness as an emergent property will be very helpful someday as to either establishing what consciousness is, or failing in a way that lends support to the Buddhist notions. lfen
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Soplar Inactive Member |
Hi Terry48420
Have had a little trouble finding you after my thread was closed, but your response was so amazing that I wanted to continue the dialog. To review: In response to my assertion
But then, either the Creator established a world in which bad things happen such as cancer, heart disease, etc., or the Creator is creating them at this time. You responded
God created things to be perfect. No sickness, death and etc. Sickness and death were introduced into the world at the fall of man when he ate of the forbidden fruit in Genesis 3. In response to my assertion
2. A similar set of arguments applies to the Intelligent Designer concept. You responded
I will refer you to a book that may help: Apologetics Press has a book called "Signs of Intelligence" by William Dembski and James Kushiner. I don't personally have the book, but have heard that it is very good. In response to my assertion
3. The question of why the explanation of the world in a book written over 2,000 is superior to the accumulated knowledge of some of the greatest minds who have ever lived. You responded
Because it is the word of God and He should know about these things. Our scientific theories change all the time as new data is found. God does not change I must say that I find your responses truly amazing. Re item 1. I would be most interested in a little more detail re how the eating of an apple in the Garden of Eden has led to all of the afflictions affecting humans. Did God just get pissed off and change everything — adding disease, etc.? While I'm not a Bible Scholar, I don't recall anything like that in the Bible Re item 2, I haven’t read the book, but, if I get a chance I will try as I find irrational arguments interesting (I once read a book by an eminent scientist who argued that the Special Theory of Relativity was wrong because it didn’t make sense — there have been hundreds of experiments testing the theory and none have shown it wrong). But back to ID. The subject of ID made the pages of the Wall Street Journal recently. In response to an article mentioning the first peer reviewed article supporting ID, one respondent wrote
The reason most scientists reject ID is that it fails to add anything to our understanding [of the world in which we live]. Placing any kind of ‘super intelligence in our explanation chain of origins of life simply puts to final question off. If one proposes that some kind of intelligence is behind it all, then one must, in all fairness, inquire into the origin of that intelligence and so on, an infinite regression I couldn’t have put it better. I would be interested in your explanation of what an ID brings to the party. Given an ID, which we cannot know, we still must figure out how the world works if we wish to make any progress — unless of course we really shouldn’t tamper with the ID’s work Re item3 — your response here is what I really find most amazing. I find it difficult to believe that you don’t understand that Because it is the word of God isn’t an answer as you have zero proof that he did — it’s the old because is because argument. But, if you really believe that Genesis trumps libraries full of learned books, then you imply that thousands of people are wasting, have wasted their time; that they have been duped by their data, e.g., that the indication of the millions of years of earth’s existence as indicated by radiometric dating is all wrong and those who claim it to be true are either lying are deluded; that the red shifts which show the universe to be immensely large and old are figments of peoples imaginations. Please enlighten this poor scientist as to why the knowledge base that has been accumulated over the past few hundred years is all wrong -- I think this the ultimate hubris. While you are at it, tell me how the book of Genesis explains, for example, the fossil record as I don't think it's mentioned -- not surprising as I don’t think the writers were aware of fossils at the time (but God must have been). I await your replay Regards, Soplar
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AdminNosy Administrator Posts: 4754 From: Vancouver, BC, Canada Joined: |
Can't pick up that here. It is off topic. Sorry, if you think the closed thread has life left then propose a continuation thread.
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Arkansas Banana Boy Inactive Member |
Thanks PecosGeorge...thats what I get for trying to remember quote attributions without looking them up first. Thanks for the correction and reference.
ABB
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Parasomnium Member Posts: 2224 Joined: |
jar writes: Well, many are cold but few are frozen. Brilliant!
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Nighttrain Member (Idle past 3994 days) Posts: 1512 From: brisbane,australia Joined: |
Well, many are cold but few are frozen. Lol. Well done.
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Soplar Inactive Member |
As you can see, I was trying to continue the dialog with Terry48420. From my viewpoint, Terry's responses/views are absurd and I was hoping Terry would amplify on them. Apparenlty this is not possible.
This is a problem with terminating a thread when "it gets to long" Not clear why 300 is considered too long unless you have a storage problem. Soplar
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AdminAsgara Administrator (Idle past 2303 days) Posts: 2073 From: The Universe Joined: |
In the past we have had problems with data corruption after 300 posts. With our new software, that supposedly is not a real issue anymore but many here, and I am one of them, feel that 300 is still a good cut off point. By then many threads have lost their way and are no longer anywhere near on topic. Starting a continuation thread gives posters a chance to clarify points and focus the discussion again. If the main thrust of the topic has been veering off course a new thread can pick that up in a more topical way.
We generally do not have problems with this. If an opponant won't follow you to a new thread to continue a discussion, chances are they wouldn't continue in the old thread either. Ok, now I am off topic. Any further discussion of this issue can be taken to the appropriate thread pulled from my signature. AdminAsgara Queen of the Universe Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com
General discussion of moderation procedures Thread Reopen Requests Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum Introducing the new "Boot Camp" forum Other useful links: Forum Guidelines, Style Guides for EvC and Assistance w/ Forum Formatting
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
Nighttrain writes: Dunno about Beatific Vision, but I,`ve had a number of experiences in my life. Moments of exceptional clarity. I recall being a trifle chilly, but otherwise it was memorable. I had a different vision of myself and the world and set out on a different path afterwards. During the experience, I never met God, heard any voices or a heavenly choir, had no visions of apocalyptic events, just like an overview of existence from another angle. Does this count? Your number of experiences might very well count but we need more information. What were the specific circumstances of your chilliness? In what sense did you have a different vision of yourself and the world? As regards the absence in your experiences of having visions and hearing choirs and so forth, none of those ingredients are necessary. On the contrary, such claims would tend to invalidate the experience. I am very curious about this since I have never transcended anything and have never had a sudden change in my vision of myself or the world or anything else that I can think of though I have often wished to. This message has been edited by robinrohan, 02-05-2005 11:26 AM This message has been edited by robinrohan, 02-05-2005 11:29 AM The mind is its own place, and in itself Can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.---Milton
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
Since there might be no time in heaven, that would make boredom impossible.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
Atheists don't need heaven, they got this:
Burning Man
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Nighttrain Member (Idle past 3994 days) Posts: 1512 From: brisbane,australia Joined: |
Hi,Rob, nothing very mysterious or supernatural about the experiences. Most took place during periods of high stress. I never induced them with illegal substances (or legal, come to think of it ), but it was almost as if my thinking or vision moved to a higher level. While the coolness was a minor factor, the one lingering memory I had was absolute clarity, no emotions involved, just a new way of looking at my life from an overall viewpoint.One experience involved receiving (?) information necessary for the formation of a new welfare organisation. As fast as I could write, new ideas and directions flooded into my mind, most of which worked out in practice. Creos might say it was divine guidance, but it all involved human behavior, no warnings, no retribution. Was I finally getting my act together? Was I evolving? Who knows? Thing is, I am a better person today for the insights.
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tsig Member (Idle past 2909 days) Posts: 738 From: USA Joined: |
Of course I can, it's simple. All I have to do is think of the time before I was born. My mind was just... not there. There was nothing for me before my birth. I had no life to live yet, I had no influence in the world, I didn't know what was happening in the world. I was just just... not there! Pretty much as you described. And you know what? I didn't care, just as I won't care after I die. So, for consistency's sake, I might as well not care now. I think I'll just have some fun in the mean time, if it's allright with you. Yes it is very simple, we have life for a while then we don't. If you don't enjoy your life, who will?
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