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Author Topic:   Claims of God Being Omnipotent in the Bible
PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6872 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 76 of 381 (180192)
01-24-2005 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminDawg
01-03-2005 12:52 PM


Omnipotent
Hi:
Revelation 19:6
...the lord omnipotent reigns....
it does not need omnipresence, omniscience.....all powerful is enough.
Hope that helps.
When you have puzzling questions, an internet concordance may help you.
This message has been edited by PecosGeorge, 01-24-2005 11:16 AM

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 77 of 381 (180293)
01-24-2005 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Shaz
01-07-2005 12:04 PM


Actually, the literal meaning of El Shaddai is 'God Heeds'. It appears that in the translation from Hebrew to English there has been a bit of bias put into place.
So, there goes one translation, and a whole bunch of quotes.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 78 of 381 (183208)
02-05-2005 2:37 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by ramoss
01-24-2005 5:47 PM


last i checked, shaddai did mean "almighty" but in the respects of being sufficent for human needs or in being the strongest (out of the other gods), as opposed to standard christian omnipotence.
the word does not appear to be used as a verb, but modifies the name "el" or is part of the name "el" (depending on translation).

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 79 of 381 (183209)
02-05-2005 2:39 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Brian
01-11-2005 12:30 PM


Re: Yahweh speaks with forked tongue
Deuteronomy 13:1-3
If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them," you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul.
God tells lies to test Israel.
actually, that would be truths.
the conditions are that:
a. the prophet's word's are TRUE
b. he says "follow other gods"
i agree with the sentiment of your post, but i don't think that's the best example.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 80 of 381 (183210)
02-05-2005 2:43 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by jar
01-11-2005 4:32 PM


Re: Great example of GOD lying Phat, thanks.
Here is an example of GOD sending a prophet with true prophecy but that is attributed to someone other than the Hebrew GOD. Yet according to the passage, the prophet is sent by GOD as a test. GOD is lying to the people.
no, god is telling the truth. the importance of the passage is not whether or not what the prophet says is true, or whether god is being decietful, but that you should not follow other gods, even if there are signs that they might be real or true.
god is being decietful and tricky (and petty and jealous), yes, but he's not lying. you can decieve with the truth.
This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 02-05-2005 16:26 AM

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Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 81 of 381 (183225)
02-05-2005 4:25 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by arachnophilia
02-05-2005 2:43 AM


Re: Great example of GOD lying Phat, thanks.
But God is saying to the people "in order for me to test you, I need to send a prophet to tell you a lie".
If the Israelites thought that God can only tell the truth, then there would be no test.
Yes, it is true that God said he would lie, but it is still a lie.
Also, I think that God would have to lie to the prophet who is passing on the 'test'. It is hard to imagine that the prophet would go willingly to tell a false prophecy knowing what the punishment would be.
but that you should follow other gods, even if there are signs that they might be real or true.
Have you left a 'not' out here?
Brian.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 82 of 381 (183299)
02-05-2005 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Brian
02-05-2005 4:25 AM


Re: Great example of GOD lying Phat, thanks.
But God is saying to the people "in order for me to test you, I need to send a prophet to tell you a lie".
no no the prophet tells the truth, but suggests something against god's wishes. neither is telling a lie, but one is asking the israelites to do something wrong.
If the Israelites thought that God can only tell the truth, then there would be no test.
the essential meaning of the verse is that sometimes the prophesies and sayings of other religions are true, but that you should not go chasing them just because they sound like they know what they're talking about.
Yes, it is true that God said he would lie, but it is still a lie.
it's decietful, yes. but there is no lie here.
Also, I think that God would have to lie to the prophet who is passing on the 'test'. It is hard to imagine that the prophet would go willingly to tell a false prophecy knowing what the punishment would be.
no, again. the requirement is that prophesy is NOT false.
Have you left a 'not' out here?
yes, fixed. thanks.

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Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 83 of 381 (183415)
02-06-2005 4:05 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by arachnophilia
02-05-2005 4:33 PM


Re: Great example of GOD lying Phat, thanks.
Hi Arach,
no no the prophet tells the truth, but suggests something against god's wishes. neither is telling a lie, but one is asking the Israelites to do something wrong.
Okay, the two criteria for identifying a true prophet is that the prophecy must come to pass and that the prophet claims that he/she speaks in the name of Yahweh. Therefore, the prophecy could come true but if the prophet says that it came from Chemosh, then the prophet was to be killed. If the prophet says that the prophecy is from Yahweh and it doesn’t come to pass, then the prophet dies again.
So, if the prophet converses with Yahweh, and Yahweh tells him a false prophecy in order to test Israel, then God has lied to the prophet. Unless Yahweh has told the prophet that this is going to be a test for Israel. This is difficult to imagine because we know how Israel deals with false prophets.
If the Israelites thought that God can only tell the truth, then there would be no test.
the essential meaning of the verse is that sometimes the prophesies and sayings of other religions are true, but that you should not go chasing them just because they sound like they know what they're talking about.
Yes, it a case of self preservation. It also illustrates the worthlessness of prophecy as it appears that many prophets from many gods were passing on good prophecies.
What a great way of dismissing other gods.
it's decietful, yes. but there is no lie here.
But there is a lie. In order for it to be true then there has to be a lie in there. Either the prophecy is untrue or the prophet is not speaking in Yahweh’s name.
no, again. the requirement is that prophesy is NOT false.
Nope, the prophecy spoken in Yahweh’s name CAN be false.
Deuteronomy 18:21-22
You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.
How do we know that the LORD isn’t testing Israel here?
I understand completely what you are saying, but I just find it difficult to agree with. Perhaps I am not explaining it as well in text as I am in my head! LOL
Cheers.
Brian.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 84 of 381 (183419)
02-06-2005 4:19 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Brian
02-06-2005 4:05 AM


Re: Great example of GOD lying Phat, thanks.
So, if the prophet converses with Yahweh, and Yahweh tells him a false prophecy in order to test Israel
no. i mean, yes, but that's not what THIS verse is talking about. it's talking about TRUE prophesies that are said to come from another source. the prophesy itself is true. they're talking about that first set of conditions: "Therefore, the prophecy could come true but if the prophet says that it came from Chemosh, then the prophet was to be killed"
If the Israelites thought that God can only tell the truth, then there would be no test.
i disagree. the test lies in prophesies claimed to be of other sources. however, the point is moot, since there is other evidence in the bible that they did think god could (and did) lie. and god is most certainly decietful, as this verse indicates.
look at it in the context of genesis 3. god told the lie there. the serpent told the truth, but did it decietfully.
Yes, it a case of self preservation. It also illustrates the worthlessness of prophecy as it appears that many prophets from many gods were passing on good prophecies.
What a great way of dismissing other gods.
precisely. deuteronomy is a STRONGLY isolationist text. it damns even israel, in favor of judah. the primary goal of the text, i would say, is the expulsion of foriegners and their religions.
But there is a lie. In order for it to be true then there has to be a lie in there. Either the prophecy is untrue or the prophet is not speaking in Yahweh’s name.
we're dealing with two sets of conditions.
is the prophesy true?
is the prophet speaking in yahweh's name?
if either answer is no, you kill him. the verse in question deals with TRUE prophesy not spoken on yahweh's behalf. simple concept here. there is no lie, except possibly on the part of the prophet. whether god lied to him or not is not stated. i'm just saying this is a weak point, especially since the prophesy is TRUE in this case, not FALSE.
Nope, the prophecy spoken in Yahweh’s name CAN be false.
i never said it couldn't. just that that's not the case in the verse in question.
How do we know that the LORD isn’t testing Israel here?
good question. here's a better one: what of all the unfilled and broken prophesies in the bible?
I understand completely what you are saying, but I just find it difficult to agree with. Perhaps I am not explaining it as well in text as I am in my head! LOL
i dunno, i'm not sure you do. i'm not saying god is incapable of lying, or that he does not. far from it, actually. i'm just saying that the original verse in question was not a good example of it, since the prophesy is true, just in the wrong name.

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jsmall
Inactive Member


Message 85 of 381 (184485)
02-10-2005 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by arachnophilia
02-06-2005 4:19 AM


Re: Great example of GOD lying Phat, thanks.
It is a little unclear whether the words of the prophet are put in his mouth by god or he just 'allows' them to come out. Some ethicists would say it's the same thing.
But I don't understand your assertion that the prophecy is true if the prophet is claiming that it came to him from another god. That would be a lie in god's eyes.
Anyway, what about some better verses like:
Ezek 14:9
And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 86 of 381 (184488)
02-10-2005 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by jsmall
02-10-2005 10:08 PM


Re: Great example of GOD lying Phat, thanks.
But I don't understand your assertion that the prophecy is true if the prophet is claiming that it came to him from another god.
*sigh*
one more time. there are two qualities of a true prophet:
1. his prophesies come true
2. he claims to speak for yahweh.
now, if he claims to speak for yahweh, and his prophesies fail, you kill him. if his prophesies are true, but he does not speak for yahweh, it's yahweh testing israel. if neither is the case, well, he's not a very good prophet.
the verse in question deals with the second set of conditions: his prophesies are true, but he does not speak for yahweh. this is not the same are god lying to the people of israel. god is not lying to anyone (except maybe the prophet). god is sending a valid prophet from another religion. part of the requirement for this set of conditions is that his prophesies come true. the test is that his prophesies are completely valid and indeed happen, but that he is not speaking for yahweh. it is god tempting israel away from the true faith, as a test.
how is this hard to understand?
now, the more appropriate indictment here is that god tests us, and tempts his children. in later books, we have satan for this, an increasingly separate and stronger entity.
Anyway, what about some better verses like:
Ezek 14:9
And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
yeah, there's lot of stuff about god lying in the bible. i'm just saying that THIS example was not one of them. it's decietful and tricky, sure. but not a lie. the truth can be misleading.
who told the truth in the garden of eden, god or the serpent?

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xevolutionist
Member (Idle past 6923 days)
Posts: 189
From: Salem, Oregon, US
Joined: 01-13-2005


Message 87 of 381 (185600)
02-15-2005 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by arachnophilia
02-10-2005 10:46 PM


Re: Great example of GOD lying Phat, thanks.
I think you have an excellent grasp of Deut. 13.
Which part of Genesis 3 are you referring to? The "you won't die" or "you will become like God."

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 88 of 381 (185734)
02-16-2005 1:08 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by xevolutionist
02-15-2005 3:23 PM


Re: Great example of GOD lying Phat, thanks.
Which part of Genesis 3 are you referring to? The "you won't die" or "you will become like God."
well, who told the truth?
god said, "don't eat it, or you'll day that same day"
the snake said, "god's lying. you won't die, you'll become like god, with your eyes open knowing good and evil."
what happens at the end of genesis 3? what god said, or what the snake said?

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tardygm2 
Inactive Member


Message 89 of 381 (185973)
02-16-2005 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by arachnophilia
02-16-2005 1:08 AM


Re: Great example of GOD lying Phat, thanks.
God is real and jesus coming soon!

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dbrennan
Inactive Junior Member


Message 90 of 381 (186028)
02-16-2005 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by tardygm2
02-16-2005 6:28 PM


Re: Great example of GOD lying Phat, thanks.
After reading through this forum I have to admit that it at first made me quite angry.
God a liar? Never!
But I went on a little search through the Bible and other people's thoughts on this and found that, Yes, God does lie. There are many examples of righteous people lying and are rewarded for it also.
It seems to me that God allows lying for his glory. For instance, Underground Churches lie constantly to protect their flocks. They do this for God's glory. But he does not allow lying for ones own glory. Such as lying to get out of a sin that one has committed.
But in the end this doesn't mean God isn't perfect or real. And there are some things that God cannot do. One such thing I read recently was that God cannot cease to be God.
And yes Mitt that is exactly what we are discussing.

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