What do believers believe heaven or hell are like?

Deep? I'm thinking more along the lines of 'high'.

---

We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins

I think that heaven and hell are as objectively different as comparing primates to other animals are subjectively the same.I would need to give a thought consideration to the following footnote before I could expurt any of my past thoughts to all I might have on the topic today.Kant, Critique of Judgement, Critique of the teleological judgment, methodology of the theleological judgement p 315
"(20 We can indeed think one of two dissimilar things, even in the very point of their dissimilarity, in accordances with the analogy^22...
TWENTYTWO-"analogy(in a qualitative signification) is the identity of the relation between reasons and consequences (causes and effects), so far as it is to be found, notwithstanding the specific difference of the things or those properties in them which contain the reason for like consequences,i.e., considered apart from this relation). Thus we conceive of the artifical constructions of beasts by comparing them with those of men, by comparing the ground of similiar effects bought about by men (reason), which we do know; i.e. we regard the ground of the former as an analogon of reason. We then try at the same time to show that the ground of the artisan faculty of beasts, which we call instinct, specifically different as it is in fact from reason, has yet a similar relation to its effect ( the buildings of the beaver as compared with those of men). But then I cannot therefore conclude that because men uses reason for his building, the beaver must have the like, and call this a conclusion according to analogy. But from the similiarity of the mode of operation of beasts (of which we can not immediately percieve the ground) to that of men (of which we are immediately conscious),we can quite rightly conclude according to analogy that beasts too act in accordance with [i]representations[i/] not as Descartes has it, that they are machines)."I think that creatures made up by artists about the past adaptations are more fictional (I cant remember the name of the guy who came out withe the book of fictional creatures with made up adaptations of the future started with Den..something) than any beast provided by reading Revelation say. There is no such thing as a "basic" phenotype. Memes are like beaver's Malthusala THE
Access denied
POND characters. Heaven and Hell are more real. I had said "presentations" eariler today. All we got more was the representation. I think the turtle has more brains than Richard had memes but that is my own opinion. The duck of course had it all.

Now all you would need do is compare the pond characters with this other artist I can quite put my tongue on. I have always thougt that Croizat had used MORE than two genuses of thought and that study would enable me to verify my suspicion actually but if Kant's use of machine was applied throught the phenomenology I think only Gould's book keeping survies the machine that would do the BIble coding or whatver Neitzian lingo was not Freuds projection neuronally. I must stop. I had encourgaing people inthis kind of free thinking. We need to uderstand more basics after the quote is understood NO MATTER THE USE.

When I wrote those words, Para, I felt a little electric surge go through me which is usually an indication of what I call "felt depth."And as soon as I figure out what they mean, I will tell you and you will be most likely in awe.This message has been edited by robinrohan, 02-09-2005 16:39 AM

I think when your physical body dies your soul continues to exist in some 'spirit world'. One assumption for my thoughts on the afterlife is that your existence in this world affects the next one (this isn't hard for me to believe because Jesus' teachings suggest this). When people's bodies die they all go to the same place, where there's no thinking or 'feeling' (in the physical sence). What determines if the afterlife is heavenly or hellish is how you get satisfaction for this life. If all your happiness comes from physical means (ie sex and drugs) then when you die you'll no longer have a body and you're in the sprit world and you'll be in a 'hell'. If you gain satisfaction from the things that can transend death, you will be satisfied in the afterlife and be in a heaven.I think the things that transend are Faith Hope and Love (maybe some others too). This doesn't meant that the physical pleasures are bad, and I don't think you get punished for sinning, but if thats what you're relying on, when you die your gonna be screwed. I also don't think that heaven is some reward for good behavior. You just gotta know how to get spiritual happiness.My thoughts on this subject come from feeling my soul. I think there's something inside me that isn't physical and I can feel it. It doesn't seem like my mind is playing tricks on me. I think you body is required for your soul to develop and interact with others. I think as your body grows your soul grows, and your mind (not brain) is the connection between them. Other ideas come from the teachings of Jesus. I think if you weren't very intellegent or didn't think deeply about afterlives and such, but you followed the teachings of Jesus, then your afterlife would be heavenly.Please respond with your thoughts or questions.This message has been edited by Catholic Scientist, 02-09-2005 16:46 AM

I think I'm in trouble.However, there is one possible escape route. What if I have engaged in such sensual adventures and yet never got much "happiness" out of them? Would a certain degree of hard-won misery help mitigate the wicked sensuality of which admittedly I have often partaken in the past?This message has been edited by robinrohan, 02-09-2005 17:06 AM

If you never got much happiness from the sensual adventures then that blandness would have little affect on your afterlife. You wouldn't miss it, but you might miss spiritual happiness if your sensual adventures weren't coupled with the transendencese I spoke of. I wouldn't call them wicked, do all the drugs and sex that you want just realize that they will be gone and you should suplement those feelings with ones that can be worth something in the afterlife. And also realize that the more sex and drugs you do the more you'll rely on them for happiness and take time away from the better things.Now, this question of mitigating the sensuality...I don't really understand what you mean or how you can cancel something you previously enjoyed by disliking it now...but then your question says that you never enjoyed them inthe first place so whats the point of canceling it?
This does make me think of something I hadn't thought of before. Instead of mitigating the things you liked, what if your life was filled with physical pain and suffering and contained no transedent happiness, when you died and were freed from the pain, perhaps the afterlife would be heavenly-ly numb...but still without the transendent happinesses I think your afterlife would be vauge and bland, like the concept of pergatory.Speaking of purgatory...I think if your physical body and your mind don't develop, then your soul doesn't develop either. So when babies die they experience the afterlife much like they experienced the physical world, unaware, or in purgatory. Likewise, if someone is physically developed but not mentally developed, their sould will only know what their mind has been able to communicate to it. A severly mentally undeveloped person would experience the afterlife like a severly physically undeveloped person would.It takes the growth of your body and the encouters it faces, to develop your soul through communication with your mind. The mind is the physical/spiritual link between the soul and the body.I'm tired of typing and am leaving work so maybe I can respond later tonight.Please resond with questions/comments.

quote:

---

My thoughts on this subject come from feeling my soul. I think there's something inside me that isn't physical and I can feel it.

---

How do you feel something that isn't physical with a body which is equipped to feeling only physical sensation, as far as we have ever been able to detect and demonstrate?

quote:

---

It doesn't seem like my mind is playing tricks on me.

---

It never seems like one's mind is playing tricks on us, though, does it? At least, if the "trick" is successful.If your mind were playing tricks on you, you wouldn't know, by definition.The thing is, what kind of evidence would you accept which would convince you that your mind actually IS playing tricks on you?

quote:

---

I think you body is required for your soul to develop and interact with others. I think as your body grows your soul grows, and your mind (not brain) is the connection between them.

---

Where does the mind come from, if not the brain?

quote:

---

Other ideas come from the teachings of Jesus. I think if you weren't very intellegent or didn't think deeply about afterlives and such, but you followed the teachings of Jesus, then your afterlife would be heavenly.

---

Huh, Jesus likes superficial thinking, dumb people best.I'd like to point out to everyone that I did NOT bring this up.Catholic Scientist said it first.

quote:

---

I wouldn't call them wicked, do all the drugs and sex that you want just realize that they will be gone and you should suplement those feelings with ones that can be worth something in the afterlife. And also realize that the more sex and drugs you do the more you'll rely on them for happiness and take time away from the better things.

---

It's really too bad that the old religions of the fertility Goddesses got crushed by the anti-pleasure, anti-female, persecutorial, guilt- and shame-promoting Patriarchal God religions.Those lost religions celebrated the Goddess given pleasures of life instead of devaluing and degrading them.

Very good, CS. Not wicked. Perhaps somewhat shallow however. A couple of full-blown love affairs, if that matters (long ago). I would not call that shallow, even though they did not last.But that's not all I did (or do). I worked fairly hard at my job, and I helped to raise a family of sorts. That should count for something. Read some books. Did chores around the house. Had some affection for a few, very few, people. By drugs I didn't mean hard drugs. Well, some marijuana in the sixties. Mostly beer, wine, some Margueritas, the occasional Martini--you know the sort of thing.But my life doesn't add up.This message has been edited by robinrohan, 02-09-2005 21:30 AM

I like that "pleasures of life" concept.

Just a few quick thoughts before I hit the sack, I'll give a better reply tomarrow.... Do you not believe that things exist which are not detect/demonstrate-able?
Also, I think the soul IS the equipment that allows the body to feel non-physical sensations. When I'm afraid of the dark and then I realize that nothing is there, I feel like my mind played a trick on me. Also, when I use conscious expanding drugs, some mind tricks become apparent. As far as the my soul is concerned...any, do you have some of that evidence? It comes from the brain AND the soul, its a connection between the two. superficial ( P ) Pronunciation Key (spr-fshl)
adj.
Of, affecting, or being on or near the surface: a superficial wound.
Concerned with or comprehending only what is apparent or obvious; shallow.
Apparent rather than actual or substantial: a superficial resemblance.
Trivial; insignificant: made only a few superficial changes in the manuscript.
Being or affecting or concerned with a surface; not deep or penetrating emotionally or intellectuallyI think you're wrong about Jesus. His teachings were about deep emotional and intellectual morals that were far from the 'surface' of this physical existance. Could you please reiterate you the point you were making with these statements?

Physical pleasures are useless in the long run. Post-death, i mean.

I thought the mind was the soul. If you got brain, mind, and soul--3 different things--that sounds like Tri-ism, not just Dualism.

---

The mind is its own place, and in itself
Can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.---Milton

quote:

---

Do you not believe that things exist which are not detect/demonstrate-able?

---

I don't know if they exist or not. There's no way to know.

quote:

---

Also, I think the soul IS the equipment that allows the body to feel non-physical sensations.

---

Well sure, you can think that, but can you demonstrate it?I don't think you can, so why should I share your belief? Why should anyone?

quote:

---

When I'm afraid of the dark and then I realize that nothing is there, I feel like my mind played a trick on me.

---

"When I believe in a soul without evidence, and I never allow myself to consider the possibility that nothing is there, I never feel like my mind played a trick on me."

quote:

---

Also, when I use conscious expanding drugs, some mind tricks become apparent.

---

Did you know that intense religious feelings in humans can be induced by stimulating certain parts of the brain, just like smells, visions, body movements and other emotions?Now, if we were to do an experiment in which we put an electrode in that part of the brain of a person without their knowing it, and we stimulated it, would they realize that the "soul feelings" they were experiencing were induuced? Or, would they simply have a strong religious experience and be convinced that they are connected to the divine?How can a person tell the difference between a real religious experience in which they connect with the divine and a fake one that they self-induce?To self delude and rationalize is to be human.

quote:

---

As far as the my soul is concerned...any, do you have some of that evidence?

---

Well, the above is a good start.

quote:

---

It comes from the brain AND the soul, its a connection between the two.

---

We can detect the brain, and demonstrate many of it's effects readily. We can certainly demonstrate that it exists, and that is has a huge effect upon behavior.Can you demonstrate the soul, and demonstrate any effects it has?Why should I believe in the existence something nobody has ever been able to demonstrate, especially when we have an existing organ, the brain and cns, which seems to be capable of producing all the sensations we feel?

quote:

---

I think you're wrong about Jesus. His teachings were about deep emotional and intellectual morals that were far from the 'surface' of this physical existance.

---

OK, but...

quote:

---

Could you please reiterate you the point you were making with these statements?

---

You said:

quote:

---

I think if you weren't very intellegent or didn't think deeply about afterlives and such, but you followed the teachings of Jesus, then your afterlife would be heavenly.

---

The "heavenly" reward goes to shallow thinking, dumb people.