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Author Topic:   Ned Flanders, of "The Simpsons" TV program
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 1 of 37 (190955)
03-10-2005 2:38 PM


The Christian right has recently found themselves to be in an awkward position concerning the "The Simpsons" TV program. A recent episode (which I did not personally see) had the Simpsons hometown of Springfield legalizing and promoting homosexual marriage.
Obviously, this is not a perspective favored by the Christian right - But they have the problem that "The Simpsons" also has a long history of a fairly positive display of Christianity. Most notably, the Simpson's neighbor Ned Flanders.
In an episode of my very limited exposure to conservative talk radio, the host was downplaying the positive significance of the Ned Flanders character. His impression (and he admitted to not having seen the program much) was that Ned Flanders was portrayed as a "dufus", not something favorable to Christianity.
Certainly, a fair number of the shows characters do have a significant "dufus factor", including Ned Flanders. But I do think that Ned does come off very favorably as a fine human being.
I do NOT wish this to be another "Homosexual Marriage" topic. Rather, I am aiming for a discussion of my view that Ned Flanders is a good representation of what a "good Christian" is. I guess that the particular Christian church that the various characters attend, and the minister of that church, could also be part of the discussion.
(Submitted to the "Faith and Belief" forum)
Moose

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AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 37 (190959)
03-10-2005 2:48 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3 of 37 (190961)
03-10-2005 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Minnemooseus
03-10-2005 2:38 PM


Okaly Doakaly...lets put the FUN back in fundamentalism
Ned and his family have some common characteristics with the conservative, "Focus on the Family" type of culturally repressed, homeschooled family.
Ned is, nonetheless entertaining and funny. The minister Reverand Lovejoy is also a caracature of sorts, as he deftly searches the scriptures for the right words for the right Okaaashunn.
One thing that everyone has to remember is that all Christians are no more conservative than are all gay people flamers.
Humor is a tool that society can use to heal itself and promote tolerance without lack of respect for morality.
Gay marriage will probably become a societal norm within fifty years, but what will be really interesting is when they start talking about gay divorce. Everybody needs the Lord, after all!

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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 37 (190962)
03-10-2005 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Minnemooseus
03-10-2005 2:38 PM


I always liked something a friend of mine said one time when we were talking about Canada. (Bear with me, it's relevant.) He said, "America makes fun of Canada for the same reason that Homer Simpson makes fun of Ned Flanders. Deep down we know they're better than us, and we want to take them down a peg."
The fun of Flanders' character is that he's freakin' unbearably good. Homer'll act towards him in a way that any reasonable person would respond to by punching him in his big fat face, and Ned'll just say, "God-diddly bless you, Homerino!" At a certain point you just want to strangle him, and yell "DAMN IT, NOBODY'S THAT KIND AND PATIENT!" Crimney, even Reverend Lovejoy gets fed up with how dam-diddly-amned decent the character is.
That being said, I also think that Flanders is used as a good venue for poking fun at Christianity. Ned's life is horribly boring and lame, his wife is the biggest priss in town, and his kids are stupid little weiners. Their idea of a fun night is eating cottage cheese on cucumbers, playing Bible trivia, and going to bed at 7:30. And the worst part is, they're frikkin' happy with that. That really is their idea of a good time.
Of course, any widely-known social phenomena you can think of has gotten a ribbing or two from the Simpsons down the years, so there's no reason why Christianity should get a pass.

"Creationists make it sound as though a theory is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night."
-Isaac Asimov

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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 37 (190963)
03-10-2005 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Phat
03-10-2005 3:09 PM


Re: Okaly Doakaly...lets put the FUN back in fundamentalism
The minister Reverand Lovejoy is also a caracature of sorts, as he deftly searches the scriptures for the right words for the right Okaaashunn.
Heh heh...
Lovejoy: And the lord said, "Whack ye the serpents which crawl on their bellies, and they town shall be a beacon unto others." So you see, Lisa... even God himself endorses whacking day.
Lisa: Lemme see that book.
Lovejoy: ...no.
One thing that everyone has to remember is that all Christians are no more conservative than are all gay people flamers.
Sure. But in a comedy show, it's funnier to put up Christians as conservatives. Just as it's funnier to put Smithers on screen humming "It's raining men" to himself while arranging his doll collection.

"Creationists make it sound as though a theory is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night."
-Isaac Asimov

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 6 of 37 (190966)
03-10-2005 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Dan Carroll
03-10-2005 3:13 PM


Nobody's mentioned the episode where Ned's wife is killed, and I really thought that was a watershed moment in the development of the character. That episode was a while ago (and so I don't remember it very well), but I was really surprised at how positive a force Christianity was portrayed in the lives of Ned and his family. Most of the time, yes, the Flanders are simply stand-ins for Christian simple-mindedness. But every once and a while we're reminded that they are serious about their religion, and that it is, on balance, a positive force in their lives.
Christians need to realize that the Flanders represent Christianity as it is practiced by Christians. Often, that's a positive force. Sometimes that's a repressive force. But that's the spectrum of Christianity, and if Christians aren't happy with that, then they need to clean house.
P.S. That episode was "Alone Again, Natura-Diddily" and it aired Feb 13, 2000.

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 7 of 37 (190968)
03-10-2005 3:51 PM


Please keep in mind ...
... "Nine out of ten religions fail within the first year"
:GOD

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

  
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6022 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 8 of 37 (190979)
03-10-2005 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Minnemooseus
03-10-2005 2:38 PM


Flanders and proof against God
Rather, I am aiming for a discussion of my view that Ned Flanders is a good representation of what a "good Christian" is.
The first thing that came to my mind is an episode where Homer gets a crayon removed from his brain, and becomes a genius.
Homer proves that God does not exist, and hands the proof to Flanders - who after reading over it and realizing it is correct, says something like "better not let this get out" and burns the proof.
I lost a lot of respect for Flander's faith in that moment - it showed he was more interested in maintaining the Christian "agenda" and "lifestyle" than maintaining faith.

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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 9 of 37 (190985)
03-10-2005 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by pink sasquatch
03-10-2005 6:07 PM


Re: Flanders and proof against God
Actually, the crayon in the brain caused the genius - Homer lost it when the crayon was removed.
The moment was a detail of a greater context, that had nothing to do with Flanders or his faith. As created (and it is fiction) I don't think the moment does the true Flanders character justice.
But at worst, I think it would only be a momentary wavering of faith on Flanders part. If the situation were to have been explored in greater detail, I think Flanders response might actually have been "This looks right, but it can't be true. Still, I better not let this out." Then he burns the paper. By the way, the scene continues to show Homer playing copies of the "proof" on the windshields of the area cars.
We know that the non-existance of God can not be proven (Can't prove a negative). Whether Flanders would have realized this is open to debate. But I think his Christian faith in itself would convince him that the "proof" couldn't be correct.
Bottom line - I can't hold that this little incident makes Flanders a hypocrite.
Moose

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Angeldust
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 37 (190987)
03-10-2005 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Phat
03-10-2005 3:09 PM


Re: Okaly Doakaly...lets put the FUN back in fundamentalism
quote:
Gay marriage will probably become a societal norm within fifty years, but what will be really interesting is when they start talking about gay divorce. Everybody needs the Lord, after all!
Minorly off topic, but gay divorce is something that they are already talking about. In fact there was some question about how the divorces of American same-sex couples who came to get married in Canada would work. Something about residing in the country for a certain period of time. It's been awhile since I read anything to that effect, so I don't really recall what the legal strings were.
I've also heard about a custory battle over an adopted child of two lesbians who are getting divorced. I can't find anything on the internet about it, so I'll try to remember to ask the person who was talking about it.

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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 11 of 37 (191009)
03-10-2005 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Angeldust
03-10-2005 7:42 PM


As long as we are slightly off topic
You might want to check the following posts by moi out.
EvC Forum: Bush Is Back (part 2)!
EvC Forum: Civil Unions in Vermont: Statistics

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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 12 of 37 (191010)
03-10-2005 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by coffee_addict
03-10-2005 10:08 PM


Re: As long as we are slightly off topic
Watch it, or you'll be dealing with AdminFatTony.
Moose

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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 13 of 37 (191027)
03-11-2005 4:32 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Minnemooseus
03-10-2005 6:59 PM


Re: Flanders and proof against God
I'm pretty sure that Pink had it right, the crayon was lodged in his brain since he was a child, he had the crayon re-inserted to return to his normal level of intelligence. Here we go, the episode is 'HOMR'.
TTFN,
WK

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contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 37 (191034)
03-11-2005 6:18 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Wounded King
03-11-2005 4:32 AM


Re: Flanders and proof against God
Well the Simpsons is quite problematic to analyse. Its nominally subversive, but can a programme with such popularity and so ensconced in our schedules really be subversive?
I think the moment that Flanders burned the proof of the non-existance of god was entirely in keeping with the rest of his character portrayal. As I have remarked before, IMO 99% of christianity is not about god at all, but about about being some kind of Good Citizen, and Flanders relentless politeness, the small-mindedness of his family, and their inability to think beyond their box bear this out. In this regard the Simpsons accords with being perceived as having a subversive message about christianity, as Flanders does not appear to be in touch with the real world, and to use his faith as a crutch for so doing. Unfortunately, I have met people very much like him.
And yet, the moments in which religion is portrayed as being genuinely, rather than opportunistically, important to Flanders undermine this subversiveness, and I wonder if there is some extraneous "balance" agenda at work. Similarly, I have little sympathy for the present lesbian controversy, because they have chosen to make their lesbian the very caricature of the ugly, sexless, hairy-legged woman beloved of homophobes and misogynists.
Anyway, I do not think Flanders paints christianity in a flattering light. A realistic and accruate light, yes, but not a flattering one, by and large.

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 15 of 37 (191067)
03-11-2005 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Minnemooseus
03-10-2005 2:38 PM


On the Simpsons as a whole?
It seems to me that throughout the series there is an undercurrent of both morality and the concept of Redemption. It doesn't seem to be limited to interactions within the Flanders or even the Simpsons, and extends to many episodes and characters. Isn't the story of Crusty the Clown just one of Redemption and Forgiveness?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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