Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   What is the oldest religious text?
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6022 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 1 of 56 (192323)
03-18-2005 12:16 PM


What is the oldest religious text?
I think this is an important question, one definitely outside of my area of expertise.
In another thread, xevolutionist writes:
Zweemer, author of The Origins of Religion, found that the oldest traditions were of one supreme God and that other beliefs came later. I am of the opinion that the Hebrew writings are the oldest and best documented manuscripts that we have. I will take a look at the upanishads, but you are the first person to tell me that their writings are older than the torah.
I did some quick poking around on the web, and found independent sites claiming that both the "Egyptian 5th Dynasty Pyramid Text" and the Hindu Rig Veda hold the title of the world's most ancient religious text.
Ultimately, I would be interested to see a timeline of important religious texts, and the Torah's chronological place among them.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by arachnophilia, posted 03-19-2005 10:23 PM pink sasquatch has not replied
 Message 7 by jar, posted 03-19-2005 10:59 PM pink sasquatch has not replied
 Message 8 by RAZD, posted 03-19-2005 11:03 PM pink sasquatch has not replied
 Message 13 by StormWolfx2x, posted 04-04-2005 3:27 AM pink sasquatch has not replied
 Message 55 by michaelrobin, posted 11-29-2010 12:24 AM pink sasquatch has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 2 of 56 (192463)
03-19-2005 9:16 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 3 of 56 (192669)
03-19-2005 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by pink sasquatch
03-18-2005 12:16 PM


What is the oldest religious text?
one thing is certain: it is NOT monotheistic.
the tradition date for the authorship of genesis/exodus is about 1250 bc, the hypothetical time of moses. (they were in fact written much later)
moses was preceeded in egpyt by akhenaten (amenhotep 4) by about 100 years. he was the first historical leader of a monotheistic religion. he of course turned about 2000 years of egyptian polytheistic tradition on its head. so, uh, polytheism goes back a lot longer monotheism.
This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 03-19-2005 10:24 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by pink sasquatch, posted 03-18-2005 12:16 PM pink sasquatch has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by RAZD, posted 03-19-2005 10:40 PM arachnophilia has replied
 Message 46 by ausar_maat, posted 10-04-2005 2:00 PM arachnophilia has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 4 of 56 (192682)
03-19-2005 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by arachnophilia
03-19-2005 10:23 PM


you are running into the problem of pre-historic cultures that were polytheistic but did not record the faiths in texts or documents. you also have the problem of cultures ruled by {king\gods} which appear monotheistic because they do not distinguish between the leader and the empowerment of the leader. these would be regarded as cult beliefs now and not monotheisms.
and the hindu beliefs were and are anything but monotheistic ... the god of soccer moms eh?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by arachnophilia, posted 03-19-2005 10:23 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by nator, posted 03-19-2005 10:45 PM RAZD has replied
 Message 6 by arachnophilia, posted 03-19-2005 10:48 PM RAZD has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 5 of 56 (192683)
03-19-2005 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by RAZD
03-19-2005 10:40 PM


quote:
you are running into the problem of pre-historic cultures that were polytheistic but did not record the faiths in texts or documents.
What do you call hieroglyphs? They certainly tell us an awful lot about Egyptian life and religious beliefs even though they are not alphabetical writings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by RAZD, posted 03-19-2005 10:40 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by RAZD, posted 03-19-2005 11:16 PM nator has replied
 Message 18 by hoaryhead, posted 08-30-2005 6:23 PM nator has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 6 of 56 (192684)
03-19-2005 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by RAZD
03-19-2005 10:40 PM


you are running into the problem of pre-historic cultures that were polytheistic but did not record the faiths in texts or documents.
well, no, i'm dealing strictly with recorded egyptian belief.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by RAZD, posted 03-19-2005 10:40 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by RAZD, posted 03-19-2005 11:17 PM arachnophilia has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 7 of 56 (192688)
03-19-2005 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by pink sasquatch
03-18-2005 12:16 PM


Can that even be answered?
There have been many many religions throughout history. Most have died out or been subsumed into other religions. We don't even know what most early religions might have been like. There are many indications though of what seems to be religious practices going back to times in the 10-12,000 year period, other very strong indication going back many tens of thousands of years. There are also the religions of Egypt and the other civilizations of the near East.
If we limit the question to living religions then the Hindu faith is probably the oldest, followed by Judaism.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by pink sasquatch, posted 03-18-2005 12:16 PM pink sasquatch has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 8 of 56 (192690)
03-19-2005 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by pink sasquatch
03-18-2005 12:16 PM


several google sites on {date rig veda written}:
Forbidden
The conventional dates for the RV in modern scholarship place the RV between 1700 BC and 1000 BC. An example of how these dates are constructed can be found on the Indology list. Some of the argument is reproduced here.
Rig Veda - Audio download
Rig Veda (also written as Rik Veda in English) is the oldest of all Vedas. Some scholars date the Rig Veda as early as 12000 BC - 4000 B.C.
http://www.hyperhistory.com/...2/histscript1_n2/rigveda.html
The oldest written collection of texts is the Rig Veda composed in archaic Sanskrit probably between 1500 and 1200 BC.
http://www.gurjari.net/ico/Mystica/html/veda.htm
The Vedas are written in the form of hymns or mantras in an archaic form of Sanskrit. Most of these hymns are believed to have been composed around 1500 - 1000 BC, although some are believed to date back upto 5,000 years.
and from wikipedia (Rigveda - Wikipedia):
Scholars standardly date the Rig-Veda to the 2nd millennium BC on grounds of its references to late bronze age culture (horse-drawn chariots; mostly bronze, but some iron weapons) and to the assumption that Vedic culture post-dates the Indus Valley Civilisation. It is commonly held to have been completed between 1500 BC and 1200 BC.
clearly it is possible this is the oldest, but also that this is not assured.
certainly it qualifies as within the group of "oldest traditions" and certainly it was not monotheistic. this is enough to render the quote of zweemer false.
there are also ancient chinese traditions that were not monotheistic, and certainly all the native american (north and south) were not monotheistic.
one point that can be made though is that each had one bigger and badder god in charge -- one head honcho, and it is unclear from the quote whether zweemer was talking about this aspect or monotheism per se.
there is also no way to know what faiths abounded before written records were made, so to claim that all faith started in one form or another is specious speculation at best.
{added by edit}btw: I made no conscious choice on sites other than the wikipedia one and make not editorial comment on the content (or lack) of the sites -- what I was interested in was seeing what kind of consensus there was on the age, and they seem fairly consistent.
enjoy.
This message has been edited by RAZD, 03*19*2005 11:06 PM

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by pink sasquatch, posted 03-18-2005 12:16 PM pink sasquatch has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 9 of 56 (192694)
03-19-2005 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by nator
03-19-2005 10:45 PM


sorry for lack of clarity, I was talking about what preceeded egyptian. certainly the early egyptian religion had many gods show as you mention.
also, problem is that they can show gods but don't document the religion: the comment was about documented (a minor nit picked, eh?) faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by nator, posted 03-19-2005 10:45 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by nator, posted 03-20-2005 8:27 AM RAZD has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 10 of 56 (192695)
03-19-2005 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by arachnophilia
03-19-2005 10:48 PM


deal away. I was thinking more of ur.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by arachnophilia, posted 03-19-2005 10:48 PM arachnophilia has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 11 of 56 (192740)
03-20-2005 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by RAZD
03-19-2005 11:16 PM


Oh, OK, my mistake.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by RAZD, posted 03-19-2005 11:16 PM RAZD has not replied

  
Funkaloyd
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 56 (192923)
03-20-2005 11:26 PM


Though I'm not sure that it qualifies as a religious text, Gods are mentioned a lot in Hammurabi's laws, which are dated to the early 2nd millennium BC.

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Jzyehoshua, posted 06-12-2010 9:12 PM Funkaloyd has not replied

  
StormWolfx2x
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 56 (196613)
04-04-2005 3:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by pink sasquatch
03-18-2005 12:16 PM


if we go outside of the realm of religious "texts" you can reasonably include the drawings of cavemen as well, I think most people would agree that at least some of them would deal with spirituality if not an organized religion per-se
This message has been edited by StormWolfx2x, 04-04-2005 02:28 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by pink sasquatch, posted 03-18-2005 12:16 PM pink sasquatch has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Dr Jack, posted 04-04-2005 6:01 AM StormWolfx2x has not replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 14 of 56 (196621)
04-04-2005 6:01 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by StormWolfx2x
04-04-2005 3:27 AM


Perhaps more compelling are the cave drawings of the Australian Aboriginies, since these can still be understood by contemporary Aboriginies we have direct evidence of their meaning. Some date back 30,000 years - making Aboriginal culture the longest running continuous culture known. And the oldest surviving vulture known.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by StormWolfx2x, posted 04-04-2005 3:27 AM StormWolfx2x has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by watta, posted 04-07-2005 7:37 AM Dr Jack has replied
 Message 50 by Peg, posted 10-01-2009 8:30 AM Dr Jack has not replied

  
watta
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 56 (197404)
04-07-2005 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Dr Jack
04-04-2005 6:01 AM


In Kakadu they have paintings reliably dated to 50,000 years or more.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Dr Jack, posted 04-04-2005 6:01 AM Dr Jack has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Dr Jack, posted 04-07-2005 8:43 AM watta has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024