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Author Topic:   What is an "Ex Believer", anyway?
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 16 of 123 (193603)
03-23-2005 3:57 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Phat
03-23-2005 3:51 AM


Re: I'm not insane, I'm telling you! You've Got to believe me!
Can you explain why belief is not sufficient to be a "beleiver" ?
Unless you wish to argue that anyone who beleived in Christianity but did not "meet God" did not believe in Christianity it would seem that belief should be sufficient for the lavel "believer".
But if you do not mean to make that argument why should we adopt your terminology when it is all to easy to misinterpret as meaning that nobody who beleived in Christianity ever abandoned it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Phat, posted 03-23-2005 3:51 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Phat, posted 03-23-2005 3:59 AM PaulK has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 17 of 123 (193604)
03-23-2005 3:59 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by PaulK
03-23-2005 3:57 AM


Re: I'm not insane, I'm telling you! You've Got to believe me!
Gee Paul. I dunno? How can anyone believe in Christianity without believing in a Risen Christ?
Unless you are framing it as yet another human philosophy. In which case, you believe in human wisdom as the apex. Which I can accept.
Lets just agree on definitions here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by PaulK, posted 03-23-2005 3:57 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by PaulK, posted 03-23-2005 4:46 AM Phat has not replied

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 123 (193611)
03-23-2005 4:40 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Phat
03-23-2005 3:51 AM


Re: I'm not insane, I'm telling you! You've Got to believe me!
quote:
No. A Believer is someone who has actually( at least in their perception) met God...through a spiritual epiphany. My point is that once you meet someone, you can never deny their reality.
No, thats just a combination of rationalisation and playing the "holier than though" game, religious one-upmanship.
quote:
So lets wheel Phatboy off to the rubber room and reassure him that he met god....all the while defending the sanity of a society which surely could never allow such a supernatural truth to be a viable possibility. Come visit me occasionally, and I will tell you more supernatural tales from the world which you dismiss as insanity.
OK. after all, I want to chat to Napoleon in the next room.
quote:
What if you experienced what I claim to have experienced. Would you stick to your rational mind and attempt every way to explain your experience within a empiracal framework?
Obviously. If god really exists, rationality - one of gods gifts I might add - should not be incompatible with his existance. The fact that you introduce special pleading to exempt this claim from rationality is in part what makes it look like a lie.
quote:
In other words, do you refuse to consider belief because it is uncomfortable, impossible, or merely threatening to your own sense of control over what you allow to influence you?
No. Its because there is no evidence for it, its routinely pracitced in a dishonest manner, wishes to suppress rationality, and is generally contrary to human welfare.

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 19 of 123 (193613)
03-23-2005 4:46 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Phat
03-23-2005 3:59 AM


Re: I'm not insane, I'm telling you! You've Got to believe me!
Well can you make your mind up please ?
Are you saying that anyone who beleives in the Risen Christ can call themselves a believer in Christianity or is it necessary to have "met God" as well as you originally argued ?

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 20 of 123 (193616)
03-23-2005 4:54 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Phat
03-23-2005 3:51 AM


Re: I'm not insane, I'm telling you! You've Got to believe me!
No. A Believer is someone who has actually( at least in their perception) met God...through a spiritual epiphany. My point is that once you meet someone, you can never deny their reality.
Yeah. I did that. As far as I can tell from talking to the Christians I knew at the time, and the ones I've met since. My experiences were no different from theirs.
I still believe that it was a figment of my imagination; and your experiences are a figment of yours.

This message is a reply to:
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Ben!
Member (Idle past 1398 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 21 of 123 (193617)
03-23-2005 5:12 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Phat
03-23-2005 3:51 AM


Re: I'm not insane, I'm telling you! You've Got to believe me!
My point is that once you meet someone, you can never deny their reality.
This kind of thing happens all the time in the movies. You think you're chatting with one person on the phone, but really it's a recording there. Or happens on the computer all the time. You think you're talking to a person, but you're actually chatting with an automated computer program (hi ELIZA).
Or, more related to your case, take a schizophrenic who hears voices in their head. They are not talking with anybody but themself. There is no "external" source for those voices.
...
On another point, it is too bad I haven't experienced what you have.
And yes, I DO talk with Him every day. Were you to observe me, you could rightly conclude that I was talking to myself.
I've been told that the only way to "hear" is to make a leap of faith--to choose to believe. But that sounds just like marriage; how could you "commit" to believing, and then back out? Doesn't that mean you didn't actually commit in the first place? If you back out then, by definition, you didn't make the proper commitment. You were too naive, or your plan for longevity was poor. So, I find "ex-believer" to be strange too.
Too bad I don't have the opportunity to choose to believe or not--I was born deaf to God's words, and haven't heard anything. Maybe that's why I'm good at deductive reasoning--less time spent chatting with myself, and more time spent studying the books
Ben

This message is a reply to:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 22 of 123 (193626)
03-23-2005 5:56 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Phat
03-23-2005 3:51 AM


Apples and Oranges
If you truly want to understand "ex-believer" then you need a better analogy.
As I showed you, your example is not the same.
quote:
It would be as if I once went to visit my Uncle Bill in New York City when I was 7.
You are talking of Uncle Bill, a physical being that you can see and your parents could also see at the same time. You could all point to Uncle Bill and describe exactly what he is wearing, color of his hair, color of his eyes, etc.
quote:
In my example, I believed because I experienced.
You can't experience the title of Uncle. The title has nothing to do with wether you can get to know the person or not.
quote:
What if you experienced what I claim to have experienced.
What did you experience exactly?
quote:
In other words, do you refuse to consider belief because it is uncomfortable, impossible, or merely threatening to your own sense of control over what you allow to influence you?
Remember you are trying to understand "ex-believer", which means they once believed.
I was a believer. There was no discomfort in believing and it wasn't impossible to believe. In my belief I gave God complete control over my life. I understood the Bible as it was presented to me. Then I got involved in a church that was big on Bible study. I read and studied and saw the reality of the Christian Bible.
I don't think you understand who "ex-believers" no longer believe (at least this one anyway). I no longer believe in the tenets of Christianity, which is all I ever knew of God. If God does exist outside of the pages of the Bible, then he will have to make himself known to me on his own.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
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sfs
Member (Idle past 2533 days)
Posts: 464
From: Cambridge, MA USA
Joined: 08-27-2003


Message 23 of 123 (193627)
03-23-2005 6:07 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Phat
03-23-2005 3:51 AM


Re: I'm not insane, I'm telling you! You've Got to believe me!
quote:
No. A Believer is someone who has actually( at least in their perception) met God...through a spiritual epiphany. My point is that once you meet someone, you can never deny their reality.
And my point is that what you're talking about is not "belief", as native speakers of English usually use the word. It's also not orthodox Christianity, which requires belief in a more conventional sense. The idea that you have to have had some particular sense of meeting God in order to be a Christian is an interesting form of heresy. Are you sure that you really want to advocate it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Phat, posted 03-23-2005 3:51 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Phat, posted 03-23-2005 10:02 AM sfs has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 24 of 123 (193660)
03-23-2005 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by sfs
03-23-2005 6:07 AM


Re: I'm not insane, I'm telling you! You've Got to believe me!
sfs writes:
The idea that you have to have had some particular sense of meeting God in order to be a Christian is an interesting form of heresy. Are you sure that you really want to advocate it?
*sigh* Yes. Bring on the Bishop! I would be honored to be challenged by a Believer. If the Bishop so qualifies, that is!
purpledawn writes:
The title has nothing to do with whether you can get to know the person or not.
Unless the title is King of Kings and Lord of Lords, in which case the person has the power and the ability to draw all unto Himself.
I appreciates everyones feedback. I don't really feel up for this discussion this morning...maybe later. It was a good one, though. We all got our points out, I believe.
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 03-23-2005 08:15 AM

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Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by purpledawn, posted 03-23-2005 12:52 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 26 by CK, posted 03-23-2005 1:56 PM Phat has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 25 of 123 (193691)
03-23-2005 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Phat
03-23-2005 10:02 AM


Real Answers
quote:
I appreciates everyones feedback. I don't really feel up for this discussion this morning...maybe later. It was a good one, though. We all got our points out, I believe.
I'd appreciate it if you would seriously answer my questions when you feel better.
quote:
Unless the title is King of Kings and Lord of Lords, in which case the person has the power and the ability to draw all unto Himself.
The title still has nothing to do with meeting or experiencing God.
quote:
I maintain that those who used to believe in God never actually experienced meeting Him.
Stick with your OP.
Detail your experience in meeting God.
The inability of Christians to answer questions such as mine seriously and completely also strengthens an ex-believers position.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
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CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 26 of 123 (193703)
03-23-2005 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Phat
03-23-2005 10:02 AM


Re: I'm not insane, I'm telling you! You've Got to believe me!
What happens if you met God and he says "Knee before Allah!"

This message is a reply to:
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mikehager
Member (Idle past 6466 days)
Posts: 534
Joined: 09-02-2004


Message 27 of 123 (193713)
03-23-2005 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Phat
03-23-2005 3:51 AM


Re: I'm not insane, I'm telling you! You've Got to believe me!
I shall reply to those sections directed at me.
So lets wheel Phatboy off to the rubber room and reassure him that he met god....all the while defending the sanity of a society which surely could never allow such a supernatural truth to be a viable possibility. Come visit me occasionally, and I will tell you more supernatural tales from the world which you dismiss as insanity.
I never said you were insane. I said that you had a subjective experience that you choose to interpert as "meeting God". That's fine. It doesn't mean you're insane. It does mean that you can't prove any reality to your experience and that you should have no expectation of anyone believing that your belief reflects reality. How could you have that expectation? If others shared it, if it were replicatable, and observable. The only thing we are forced to accept is your description of your state of mind. I think that you firmly believe you have had some sort of supernatural experience, because you told me so. If you go on to insist that your perseptions are accurate and reflect reality, then we're going to have to do some testing before I am convinced. Can you suggest any such tests?
Why yes! You are right. But why is this fallacy provable as false?
1. You are changing your terms, or as it is often called here "Moving the goalposts". Ex-believer is commonly understood to mean one thing but when questioned on that point, you make an ad hoc addition to it's definition to protect your position.
2. Remember that this is a logical error. It does not prove that your conclusion is wrong, it merely shows that your conclusion does not follow from your assertions.
What are the rules of logic, here?
I was operating using the rules of logic as I learned them in college and get from several source books. Do you have some other standard you wish to use?
Are we bound by human wisdom derived logic or can we allow my experience with the divine to be entered as my source of truth?
You can say that it is your source of truth. What it is not is a source of fact. That sort of requires that you accept that your truth and fact have nothing to do with each other.
The exception to the above is, of course, that it is a fact that you believe in Christianity. You are the only source with any authority to speak on the content of your mind. So, that is the only fact that your belief can generate, the fact of it's own existence.
Similarly, since I am the only source with authority to speak on the contents of my mind and I assert that I at one time whole-heartedly accepted Christ, your original argument is still rebutted.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Phat, posted 03-23-2005 3:51 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Phat, posted 03-23-2005 4:50 PM mikehager has replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 123 (193716)
03-23-2005 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Phat
03-23-2005 3:51 AM


Re: I'm not insane, I'm telling you! You've Got to believe me!
What are the rules of logic, here?
I always find that this site helps.
Come visit me occasionally, and I will tell you more supernatural tales from the world which you dismiss as insanity.
Dude, you sound like Vincent Price.

"You can't expect him to be answering your prayers when he's not real, can you? That's like writing to the characters of a soap opera and expecting a reply, Mr. Silly Sausage!"
-Jane Christie

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 29 of 123 (193722)
03-23-2005 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by mikehager
03-23-2005 3:49 PM


OK..you don't have to believe me. Now what?
If you were in the store and a person came up and told you that there was a shooter in the parking lot and yet you saw everyone else acting normally and unconvinced, you would probably seek more facts. If you saw evidence around you of a disturbance, you may take the person at their word without further investigation.
I am proposing to you that our world is not normal. It is not explained away by psychology alone. Or science alone. Or history. Or current events.
It is also not explained by theology alone. I don't really expect you to believe me. I only ask that even if the facts disagree with my testimony, you keep my testimony in mind before you make up your mind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by mikehager, posted 03-23-2005 3:49 PM mikehager has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by CK, posted 03-23-2005 5:29 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 31 by mikehager, posted 03-23-2005 5:42 PM Phat has replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 30 of 123 (193734)
03-23-2005 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Phat
03-23-2005 4:50 PM


Re: OK..you don't have to believe me. Now what?
But why? Why would we want to keep your story in mind? I went to a meeting today and at the station was a man trying to convince people to buy his religious story?
Why should your stories have any more value that the many thousands out there?
This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 23-Mar-2005 05:35 PM

This message is a reply to:
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